I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[Saidosha]

Subjobs are one of those things, I'd argue, that have to be there from the game's launch with future ability additions planned around their presence. XIV is arguably past this point of implementation, with such an addition further justifying a complete revamp of all content to maintain a certain degree of balance. That may be happening soon with EW and the numbers squish, but I'd also argue that's an easier form of revamp since they're likely just going to be tweaking numbers downward with a % value based on tweaks within ilvl and not accommodating people suddenly having a bunch of abilities they didn't have before.

Of course, concerns over meta are also 100% valid. What if I'm a Red Mage that wants to be more melee oriented? Of the existing XIV jobs, what would you pick for that purpose? I don't see a whole lot of synergy in this regard, which further tells me that some jobs are going to be more flexible than others. What would be likely, just like in XI, is that RDMs would be forced to take up more WHM abilities and shift away from their presence as mediocre DPS to mediocre Healer. And sure, if that changed queue role attribution, some might even jump on that because lolDPSqueues, but it's a safe bet that everyone who wanted to play RDM as a DPS, even with more of a BLM focus, would have a harder time finding manually configured groups.

Having also played XI, I was probably one of the community's more notorious advocates for buffing RDM's melee game. The pervasive mantra was that they were supposed to be the jack of all trades, and my interpretation of that was always that with the right gear and sub, you could be a tank, healer, nuker, or meleer. Unfortunately, a lot of people didn't look too far past the fallacy of that moniker because to them, getting an invite as a much sought healer role invalidated any other concerns for job identity and some even fell into the trap of thinking RDM was a better healer than WHMs when the answer was more It's Complicated(tm) depending on encounter(s) and party competency. Still, I lobbied pretty hard for improvements to the job's melee gear, traits, food options, spells/abilities, and so on. Irksomely enough, a lot of those ideas wound up manifesting in other jobs like BLU and SCH while RDM third-rate in most everything. Even RDM's implied niche in enfeebling was at odds with so many mobs being immune or being able to quickly shed a debuff, with many debuffs RDM never even natively getting access to. Probably the only other job to have a comparative identity crisis, albeit on a lesser scale, would've been DRK. It's melee game was good, but the caster side was pretty much garbage. No one would ever take a caster DRK for endgame activities, and for a damn good reason. This didn't have to be the case, but Tanaka was pretty much too stubborn or too much of a chicken to really embrace the potential of hybrid classes, while some players would feed into the paranoia that if they were good, no one would play anything else. RDM under Matsui is probably better off these days, but I'd say the implied mediocrity of the Jack role is still there.

[Stanelis]

FFXIV really needs more gameplay related customization but it doesn't necessarily need to comes as subjobs.

We had "sub jobs" with the cross job skills that they eventually removed. Let's not repeat past mistakes.

The issue with old cross job skills in 1.0 is that you could get ealmost every skill on your character, resulting in people being able to get everything. There is a middle ground between too little and too much.

As for balance, every boss start to be reskinned variation of the same one gameplay wise (dodge aoe, go there to soak, go stand over here, with tank and raid busters). So yes, if everything is the same the game is indeed balanced. Is it interesting though ? I m not so sure about that.

[Mikey_R]

The issue with old cross job skills in 1.0 is that you could get ealmost every skill on your character, resulting in people being able to get everything. There is a middle ground between too little and too much.

They are talking about 2.0 where you had to level other jobs to get certain actions, like having to level Gladiator for Provoke at level 22?, Swiftcast for mages from Thaumaturge at 26, Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Raging Strikes etc. Some people didn't want to level a different job either due to wanting their character to just be the one job, they had no interest in another job and didnt want to be forced to level it etc.

On the topic as a whole, how would it even work? You give a RDM access to flare and...so? How would that then fit into their rotation? You could give flare the ability to generate black mana, but it also leaves you with no MP, so you would need a way to get it back. Even if you give them, say, Fire/Blizzard 1, those 2 are weaker than Jolt 2, so what is the point?

Going onto Melee, what would, say, Monk gain out of actions from other jobs? With its more fluid combo system, you chose 1 of 2 actions (for single target) when you hit each stance. Leaden fist is way too strong for something to delay that, twin is a straight damage buff, demolish is a DoT, so you are left with True Strike and Snap Punch. You would, again, only replace them with stronger skills, this is assuming the skills from other jobs even advanced the form in the first place and if it doesn't, well, it then wouldn't be worth it, again, due to Leaden Fist. If you want to take oGCDs, ok, Lance Charge and Life Surge from DRG, Can't complain about more damage and having another guaranteed crit on say, True Strike/Snap Punch, well, that is just more damage. Though, taking Samurai instead, hmm, assuming you get a way to generate Kenki, Hissatsu: Kaiten on a Leaden Fist Bootshine would be stupid amounts of damage. However, assume you can generate Keni, which would be better damage wise? Lance Charge or Kaiten? etc.

Notice how alot of things here are, if we ASSUME it works the same, ASSUME I can generate Kenki etc. Alot of actions are so ingrained into the job and all push it further into it's rotation that it really doesn't benefit another job taking it. If DRG takes more GCDs, they start dropping Disembowel and Chaos Thrust and delaying the refresh of LotD. If Samurai's delay their GCD, that delays their Iaijutsu, which also delays Shoha etc.

Adding in sub jobs would mean a complete rework of how the jobs function. There will always be a best 2-3 combinations that work the best (lets be honest, with the current system, how would a WHM benefit MNK at all?), and anyone doing anything else than these main combinations are just hindering the group. This also doesn't take into account how different skills scale on different stats, that Full Thrust from DRG might be strong, but stick it on a caster and it will hit like a wet noodle.

[Stanelis]

As already stated, I m not saying it should come as subjobs. There are a lot of MMOPG (as a matter of fact, every single one of them except FFXIV) which allow some sort of customization. Be it through specializations, talents, etc.

Also, I didn't have any issue with 2.0 functionality as all my jobs were 50 before it was launched.

On the topic as a whole, how would it even work?

The hell if I know, I m not one of SE's game designer. I only know FFXIV is sorely lacking in terms of gameplay related customization options (and I also include gearing in this statement).

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

As already stated, I m not saying it should come as subjobs. There are a lot of MMOPG (as a matter of fact, every single one of them except FFXIV) which allow some sort of customization. Be it through specializations, talents, etc.

Also, I didn't have any issue with 2.0 functionality as all my jobs were 50 before it was launched.



The hell if I know, I m not one of SE's game designer. I only know FFXIV is sorely lacking in terms of gameplay related customization options (and I also include gearing in this statement).

They would all likely boil down to SAM/Sub anyway. Why take a drg, when Sam gets access to its raid utility and does more damage. Why take nin? Why take mnk?

They have to neuter them so much it becomes "well what's the point".

[Stanelis]

They would all likely boil down to SAM/Sub anyway. Why take a drg, when Sam gets access to its raid utility and does more damage. Why take nin? Why take mnk?

They have to neuter them so much it becomes "well what's the point".

What you re pointing out is only an issue because all bosses are virtually identical in their design in FFXIV (and is already seen at endgame in shadowbringer). If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

[Delily]

One more thing to consider, XIV may have a simplistic job and combat system but the game has complicated fights. Once you get into ex, Savage, and ultimate, you appreciate the simpler jobs to focus more on the mechanics.