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  1. #151
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,613
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RinaB View Post
    Thats fine but despite forum opinion there are a lot of people out there who like the current iteration of DRK, so screw them because HW DRK is best? This is my point, the reason why they keep reworking the class is because they can't find a happy medium and each rework has created its fan base. I think the issue started with the decision to rework the job each xpac instead of tweaking it for 1, for 2, I like current DRK and hope they build on to it because now I'm worried about 6.0 when I should be excited for it. Burnout is relevant because like real life, when you spend too much time at work or too much time with anything you start becoming annoyed by even the smallest of issues.
    To be blunt, yes. At least to a certain degree. While I appreciate you prefer this iteration, fans of the original design have been effectively screwed too. Priority should always be on those who already like the job, not chasing new fans which is something SE has been increasingly guilty of doing. For comparison sake, look no further than Bard. There are people who prefer it's more Ranger focus this expansion. Hell, some want it to lose songs entirely. Should that demographic be appeased when the far louder voice are Bards from Stormblood who found their preferred job identity destroyed?

    Ultimately, the fault of this divide lies on the dev team and their constant re-design. The likelihood any of us are wholly satisfied with DRK isn't high. Which is why I think they need to start with the most popular foundation and incorporate some aspects of the re-design from there. Living Shadow and TBN have both solid additions. Personally, I dislike how spam-y Flood of Shadow is, though perhaps they could make it work. Old Blood Weapon, on the other hand, should return to better separate DRK from its counterparts. Delirium needs yet another overhaul, or frankly, just remove the ability entirely and do something new with Bloodspiller. Either way, I'd like DRK to get away entirely from the "spam x button five times" philosophy. Let it be unique, something the tanks desperately need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shin96 View Post
    Thing is, DRK most likely got gutted because the skill ceiling was too high for the average player to manage. Why would you make something as complex as possible if the rewards outweigh the benefits? Complexity needs to be rewarding enough to engage the player in its intricacy to the point their learning experience shows steadfast results.
    It's this mentality which has since screwed up their design philosophy. DRK was never overly complex. It just asked more of you than Warrior or Paladin. The bigger issue is both how bad people were at the game back then and that several wanted DRK to be a DPS and tried treating it as such. Not to mention, WAR was comically overpowered back then. On the whole though, DRK was about as complex as GNB is now. You can to watch for Low Blow procs and know what to Dark Arts but it wasn't anything too robust.

    SE simply caved and has since found themselves re-designing DRK every expansion. That should be rather telling they overreacted.
    (11)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  2. #152
    Player
    Shin96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    540
    Character
    Revon Ackerman
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    To be blunt, yes. At least to a certain degree. While I appreciate you prefer this iteration, fans of the original design have been effectively screwed too. Priority should always be on those who already like the job, not chasing new fans which is something SE has been increasingly guilty of doing. For comparison sake, look no further than Bard. There are people who prefer it's more Ranger focus this expansion. Hell, some want it to lose songs entirely. Should that demographic be appeased when the far louder voice are Bards from Stormblood who found their preferred job identity destroyed?
    Ideally, it should be both. They need to engage newer players with accessability without disrespecting players loyal to the original concept of the jobs. What they've been doing however is the exact opposite and while I like to be optimistic, the recent developements have shown that it seems their priority is placed far higher towards expanding the playerbase at the expense of people that enjoy their jobs and have them ruined. These simplifications and destruction of identity will most likely continue. Now I personally wish for nothing more than for DRK to return to its HW iteration but the majority wins the vote and if this means displeasing us, they will accept that loss because ultimately, growth they do find more important. Judging by how this situation is evolving of course.
    (2)

  3. #153
    Player
    ItMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Lumsa Lomsa
    Posts
    4,178
    Character
    Iiiiiiiiiiit's Meeeee
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    To be blunt, yes. At least to a certain degree. While I appreciate you prefer this iteration, fans of the original design have been effectively screwed too. Priority should always be on those who already like the job, not chasing new fans which is something SE has been increasingly guilty of doing.
    If only those OG players were populous enough that SQEX didn't need to try and make the job cater to a wider crowd...

    Also, SQEX isn't trying to improve the job. They just have to change it for the sake of making it different for each expac. Otherwise jobs that were in a "perfect spot" would have basically been kept in stasis. I wonder what form DRK would have taken were this a single player game.
    (2)

  4. #154
    Player
    Otorinth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    64
    Character
    Otorinth Uzoth
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ItMe View Post
    If only those OG players were populous enough that SQEX didn't need to try and make the job cater to a wider crowd...

    Also, SQEX isn't trying to improve the job. They just have to change it for the sake of making it different for each expac. Otherwise jobs that were in a "perfect spot" would have basically been kept in stasis. I wonder what form DRK would have taken were this a single player game.
    Mostly the Shadowbringers version, but keeping the Heavensward counter-attacking and ability enhancing aspects.
    (0)

  5. #155
    Player
    Hierro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    722
    Character
    Ziero Rehw-bidit
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RinaB View Post
    So its ok to take current DRK away from people who like it and say "go play warrior" and you expect these people to sympathize with the "HW DRK is best" crowd?
    The "HW DRK is Best" crowd is wrong, because Allah knows that the "SB DRK is best" crowd is correct.

    Anyways, would you be sad if they took away current DRK? Why? If you liked how it plays, WAR is available. Why isn't "go play war" a valid response? You'll be pleased to know WAR feels way better in almost every respect. Or, do you just want to swing around a greatsword in black spiky armor and have good results for playing at a low APM while avoiding the giant axe, fur-n-leather-wearing barbarian aesthetic? That's my biggest gripe, that this was less of an issue of gameplay and more so about taking one style of play away to give the aesthetic to the masses.

    Honestly, I just want the kit back. DRK or not, I don't really care about any aesthetic or weapon, or w/e. a new tank job could be added and be called Tin Foiler for all I care, and use cardboard for as it's main weapon, but so long as it utilized that same fast-paced style of resource management, I'd sign up for my new 2nd main.
    (0)

  6. #156
    Player
    ItMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Lumsa Lomsa
    Posts
    4,178
    Character
    Iiiiiiiiiiit's Meeeee
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hierro View Post
    Anyways, would you be sad if they took away current DRK?
    Much as I love it, no.
    Because it must change, for good or for ill, and I've long since accepted that.
    I will have more fun playing a class I do enjoy (DRK or not) than I would pining after something I could never have again.
    I became a DRK main in StormBlood and do not get hung up about SB DRK either.

    But everyone is different.
    (0)

  7. #157
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,613
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shin96 View Post
    Ideally, it should be both. They need to engage newer players with accessability without disrespecting players loyal to the original concept of the jobs. What they've been doing however is the exact opposite and while I like to be optimistic, the recent developements have shown that it seems their priority is placed far higher towards expanding the playerbase at the expense of people that enjoy their jobs and have them ruined. These simplifications and destruction of identity will most likely continue. Now I personally wish for nothing more than for DRK to return to its HW iteration but the majority wins the vote and if this means displeasing us, they will accept that loss because ultimately, growth they do find more important. Judging by how this situation is evolving of course.
    Most definitely. Increased accessibility isn't itself a bad philosophy. Focusing on it almost exclusively is. And it's that mentality which led to some of the blandest and least creative design choices we've seen. Regardless of your thoughts on Dark Knight, there is no excuse for Delirium being identical to Inner Release but simple laziness. They had no idea what to do and opted for an easy and "accessible" fix. Which, to the surprise of no one, led to mass criticism. It's the same tone deaf response they took with Monk; going so far as to announcing it was the most proud of job changes they made going into Shadowbringers despite addressing literally none of the feedback. It's baffling how they didn't foresee the ire which resulted in them panic buffing and later overhauling Monk entirely.

    Sadly, it seems players need to take drastic responses to actually get attention because when the playerbase threw up their hands and refused to play Monk, it finally saw its aforementioned rework.

    Quote Originally Posted by ItMe View Post
    If only those OG players were populous enough that SQEX didn't need to try and make the job cater to a wider crowd...

    Also, SQEX isn't trying to improve the job. They just have to change it for the sake of making it different for each expac. Otherwise jobs that were in a "perfect spot" would have basically been kept in stasis. I wonder what form DRK would have taken were this a single player game.
    Except... they were. Bard was by far the most popular DPS in the entire game. In fact, it was among the most popular jobs period throughout Stormblood.

    The deemphasis on support is literally due to their silly belief only one support range can exist, and they elected Dancer to be that job. That, and their fear of Bard reaching the overpowered heights it had. Which, ironically, was their own damn fault because they never considered the impact piercing had on Bard and Machinist.
    (10)
    Last edited by ForteNightshade; 04-28-2021 at 10:40 AM.
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  8. #158
    Player
    ItMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Lumsa Lomsa
    Posts
    4,178
    Character
    Iiiiiiiiiiit's Meeeee
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Except [...] Bard
    I thought we were talking about DRK?
    I'm not making a sweeping statement about all jobs.
    I'm just commenting on DRK in a thread about it.
    (0)

  9. #159
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,613
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ItMe View Post
    I thought we were talking about DRK?
    I'm not making a sweeping statement about all jobs.
    I'm just commenting on DRK in a thread about it.
    Fair enough. I mentioned Bard immediately after where you quoted as my example of the devs ignoring popular opinion due to their own bias.

    With that said though, my point still applies in a general sense. People complained about Dark Arts spam and the lack of AoE mitigation. No one asked for a massive overhaul nor did they even want Dark Arts removed. The devs overcompensated for no real reason and landed on budget Warrior. In that context, it's similar to their lack of reaction to Monk despite it's horrendous player numbers. Which suggests they aren't paying attention to feedback, but either overreacting to small complaints or stubbornly clinging to a job philosophy that doesn't work.
    (8)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  10. #160
    Player
    WhyAmIHere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Gridania/Lominsa
    Posts
    950
    Character
    Mute Shellback
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForteNightshade View Post
    Fair enough. I mentioned Bard immediately after where you quoted as my example of the devs ignoring popular opinion due to their own bias.

    With that said though, my point still applies in a general sense. People complained about Dark Arts spam and the lack of AoE mitigation. No one asked for a massive overhaul nor did they even want Dark Arts removed. The devs overcompensated for no real reason and landed on budget Warrior. In that context, it's similar to their lack of reaction to Monk despite it's horrendous player numbers. Which suggests they aren't paying attention to feedback, but either overreacting to small complaints or stubbornly clinging to a job philosophy that doesn't work.
    stubbornly clinging to failure and square enix. name a more lasting duo.
    (8)

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