Is anyone surprised at this point?

[Absurdity]

Look, some jobs are not going to perform as well as others, as a matter of course. I get that, but nobody likes that their job is being outperformed (well, maybe underdogs do, but you get my point).

Implying that people who wanted damage buffs for WAR just suck is a bad faith take and, frankly, reeks of bitterness.

This might not be aimed at me and I can make no statement about whether or not they're bitter but just because a job is being outperformed by other jobs within the same role does not automatically justify damage buffs, even if it might "feel bad".


You'd have to look at warrior's toolkit.

It has the same base mitigation tools as all the other tanks, 20% on a 90sec cooldown and 30% on a 120sec cooldown.

On top of these it has ToB, a 20% HP increase and 20% selfheal, and Equilibrium, a 1200 potency selfheal, which I'd argue are the cooldowns competing with cooldowns like Dark Mind, Camouflage, Aurora and...well, nothing from Paladin really since I can not count Clemency as a regular mitigation tool. Dark Mind, unlike ToB, only works on magic damage and Camouflage can basically only be counted as 10% mitigation since the parry is too inconsistent and ToB adds a 20% heal on top of 20% more HP. Equilibrium has the exact same potency as Aurora and Clemency, but unlike those it heals instantly, doesn't cost resources, does not need to be cast and does not cost you any dps nor does it disrupt your rotation.
And then for short term mitigation we have the choice between Raw Intuition, which is stronger than Heart of Stone and equal to Shelltron (arguably even better since Shelltron is inconsistent against enemies that can crit), or Nascent Flash, which on average heals for more than you could mitigate with The Blackest Night, neither of which cost you resources or can lead to a dps loss.

So all in all I would say that warrior has the most reliable, most consistent and strongest defensive kit out of all the tanks and with that in mind I would say it is justified that you do less dps than other tanks. This is why you normally only compare logs with other warriors, to see how skilled you are compared to other players of your chosen job.

Now we could argue whether or not we really need those strong defensives when all other tanks can survive every mechanic just as well and deal better dps on top of that but looking at the entire warrior kit then I can't agree that warrior really needed or deserved potency buffs. If doing less damage than other tanks makes you feel bad then sorry but just deal with it, you are the beefier, tankier tank and you can't have both top damage and top mitigation, and this coming from a warrior main.

[WhyAmIHere]

I honestly think war needed some attention,
was one of the only jobs that got almost nothing new in ShB.

Barring GNB because it's the new hotness...

What really was added to tanks? Like purely take away things that were removed then returned in another form, e.g. Bloodbath on WAR -> Nascent, or Scourge on DRK -> Living Shadow.

PLD got instant casts on their spells. That's kinda cool, no lie. It helps them out massively in movement, and they got a new magic-phase finisher. Plus a new-ish melee DPS skill?
WAR got...
DRK got... party mitigation in dark missionary?

. . .

I mean we could go further and say "well what did the other roles get?" But you'd find one semi-common thread: not a whole lot changed for tanking/healing IMO. DPS though? RDM's got scourge; NIN, MCH, MNK got flat out redesigned, two of 'em mid-expansion; BRD; SMN and DRG got a whole new phase to play with; so on and so on.

It's not just that WAR got DPS numbers buff. It's not just that DRK has been shafted in terms of expansion adjustments. It's all those and more. There's nothing being done to make, arguably the most important roles to play, engaging and rewarding to play. This is a problem, because if there isn't something done with 6.0 to address this, you'll just see even MORE threads complaining about the lack of tanks/heals in the long run. Sure people are gonna flock to try the new classes, SGE and whatever the Maiming DPS will be, I'm one that's considering switching to SGE if it's fun enough myself! But later on into 6.0's lifecycle we still have this same status quo? If the team behind job balance doesn't try to shake up the formula and is again just kicking the can down the road?

Not looking forward to that prospect at all.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

[Balancing offense versus defense]

I have no issue with this argument.

I won't argue that WAR "deserved" the recent buffs any further than pointing out that there was a damage imbalance. Whether it "needed" addressing or not, I can't say definitively; I don't feel particularly strongly one way or the other.

That said, I stand by my comments towards Lyth.

What really was added to tanks? Like purely take away things that were removed then returned in another form, e.g. Bloodbath on WAR -> Nascent...

Honestly, I don't think Bloodbath compares favorably to Nascent Flash, at all. With that in mind, I would argue that Nascent Flash was a massive addition for WAR in both gameplay and performance.

There's nothing being done to make, arguably the most important roles to play, engaging and rewarding to play.

I don't know how other tanks feel in general, but I would be reasonably satisfied if SE just increased tank damage across the board. However, I don't really share in the dissatisfaction with the tanks' core gameplay loop that seems common around these forums.

[Duskane]

but that's the problem just about everything WAR got wasnt really new cleaves are just reused animations,Thrill of War gets Conv trait at 78,Nas is just blood bath and it took them a couple patches to not need a target to use it,
Dark stuff at least looks different and Flood and Edge of shadow feel Different.

[WhyAmIHere]

Honestly, I don't think Bloodbath compares favorably to Nascent Flash, at all. With that in mind, I would argue that Nascent Flash was a massive addition for WAR in both gameplay and performance.



I don't know how other tanks feel in general, but I would be reasonably satisfied if SE just increased tank damage across the board. However, I don't really share in the dissatisfaction with the tanks' core gameplay loop that seems common around these forums.

point 1) It's "do damage, achieve life drain," just by another name. It wasn't a massive change, it was "just returning what was taken away, but in a different form." I'll concede it was a helpful change, but it's not like WAR's were sweating for life gain/sustain before; their invuln doesn't kill them outright for lack of healing innately.

2) most tanks just want "unga bunga brain off go brrrr ha ha numbahz go up." Just saying "give them more damage! That'll fix the problem" is what is going on now.
The issue with tanks gameplay loop is the trivialization of tanking. No longer is hate a thing that has to be managed. Just set it (your stance) and forget it! Positioning isn't an issue anymore, not really. Dungeon bosses won't hit hard enough for most awake-at-the-wheel groups ot worry about, and nothing is done to say "X must be tanked in location Y; else BAD STATE." Tanks, as it stands now, are just gimped additional DPS that do less numbers by virtue of intent. There's no other justification for it besides "that's how the devs want it." I am ambivalent about it, because it's still a simple enough task for me to just shut my brain off, unga bunga ha ha numbahz go up do brrrr. But it got stale real quick, and it keeps getting stale.

EDIT::

Dark stuff at least looks different and Flood and Edge of shadow feel Different.

[bias post incoming]
Edge/Flood is just dark arts. Devs heard all the kvetching from the casuals and bads about having to weave an oGCD just to make your next GCD hit more and the casuals and bads didn't like it because "me wan go unga, do bunga, not have make headhurt from bigthink numbers count."
[/bias]

E/F is just DA, but instead of buffing your next global it just does the damage. And with the MP rebalancing it's even easier to keep track of if you can unga bunga E/F. 3000 MP? You good. 3000 too hard to keep track of? Just drop the last two digits and only look at the first two! 30 or more? unga goongo. not at 30 yet? No bunga goongo. that """proc""" dark arts is a joke and a reminder that TBN, the blackblood gauge, and MP have been seperated and interplay between the three is no longer as direct as it used to be, for whatever reason.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

I'd say you're underappreciating Nascent Flash.

Compared to Bloodbath, Nascent Flash is targetable, is far more timing and rotation sensitive, conflicts with another defensive tool, and is usable much more often.

In essence, Bloodbath has less nuance than Nascent Flash and is more "passive." It's also a lot less powerful.

Positioning isn't an issue anymore, not really. Dungeon bosses won't hit hard enough for most awake-at-the-wheel groups ot worry about, and nothing is done to say "X must be tanked in location Y; else BAD STATE."

A lot of tank engagement is going to come down to encounter design. SE hasn't done a great job overall in this regard, I must sadly admit, though I haven't quite settled on why.

[WhyAmIHere]

I'd say you're underappreciating Nascent Flash.

Compared to Bloodbath, Nascent Flash is targetable, is far more timing and rotation sensitive, conflicts with another defensive tool, and is usable much more often.

In essence, Bloodbath has less nuance than Nascent Flash and is more "passive." It's also a lot less powerful.



A lot of tank engagement is going to come down to encounter design. SE hasn't done a great job overall in this regard, I must sadly admit, though I haven't quite settled on why.

I'm not underappreciating it's potency. WAR's my go-to tank for dungeons because, thanks to nascent, I don't care what skill level the Healer is; they're irrelevant.
But let's be honest.
Nascent: 6s duration, 25s recast.
Bloodbath: 20s duration, 90s recast.

I'm not a numbers person but 25x4=100, and 6x4=24, yeah? So how mugh of that 10s difference that nascent has over bloodbath equates to GCD's impacted by that ability? I'd argue one. A single GCD of lifesteal on WAR over literally every melee DPS. wow.

What really sells it is Glint, on the target... if there is one. The 10% mitigation and 50% heal to them is a great boon that can't be understated, but those are supplemental things that don't greatly affect the core of "hit stuff, get health." That is why I made that comparison, and That is why I don't include it in a list of "things WAR got in 5.x that it didn't have before."

---

As for the fight design? Big 'ol shrug emote from me dude. I'd wager on experience, staff burden, workflow and task assignment, funding for manhours to work larger projects, manpower shuffling around to other departments, new hires not having mentors guide them, a risk-averse mindset; the list could go on. A lot of it's way beyond anyone on these forums' abilities to do jack all with.
Unless you're a significant shareholder, I'd wager, but even then who knows.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Quantity of GCDs affected isn't exactly the most relevant. What's more relevant is when those GCDs occur and what GCDs they are; Bloodbath grants far less control over these factors.

Now, that's not to say that Bloodbath's longer duration isn't a boon in its favor either. It certainly is; it's just not as relevant based on common encounter design.

[whiskeybravo]

They should've never made Rampart a role skill. That one change has pretty much solidified, unnecessarily, War as the "best defensive tank" ever since.

[Absurdity]

Nascent: 6s duration, 25s recast.
Bloodbath: 20s duration, 90s recast.

I'm not a numbers person but 25x4=100, and 6x4=24, yeah? So how mugh of that 10s difference that nascent has over bloodbath equates to GCD's impacted by that ability? I'd argue one. A single GCD of lifesteal on WAR over literally every melee DPS. wow.

I would keep in mind that NF heals you for 50% while Bloodbath only heals for something like 15-20% of the damage you deal (not quite sure because I really couldn't be bothered to do extensive testing)