Off Topic Discussion Megathread

[Midareyukki]

I am genuinely enjoying looking through old, old threads on this forum.

Also reading Arthurian Legend. Man, The Sword in the Stone sure as heck romanticized the ever lovin' heck outta this.

We got Arthur having a bastard son with his sister that grows up to kill him.

We got Guinevere "breaking her vows" with Lancealot and that same bastard son.

We got Merlin being half demon, spawned from a woman after she had a visit from an incubus.

We got Merlin getting sealed inside of a tree by a hot water chick named Ninian.

We got Excalibur having some weird ass Welsh names.

We got Lancelot getting raised by a fairy godmother.

We got some accounts denying Arthur's death.

Phew.

Excalibur always had weird names. From its original welsh "Caledfwlch" to the Latinized version of that, "Caliburnus". Excalibur seems to have been popularized by the way the French said it. To their credit, writing or even pronouncing Welsh is an epic of its own.

Pretty sure Mordred didn't even exist originally. Whenever anyone mentioned Arthur having sons, they died really early into their infancy. Which then begs the question: where the hell did the Battle of Camlann even come from??

Lancelot also only existed since Late Medieval Romance, so 1400's, and he's very much written like it. He exists as a foil to Arthur with a "Chivalrous Romance" dynamic with Guinivere. He's not an original canon guy, and the whole infidelity arc was really just to push Romance's views on relationships and knightlyhood. So if he feels weird or off, or at all unrelated to the rest of the myth's message and epicness, you have the French to blame. It's an agenda they pushed.

Merlin got all that because apparently having a cool wizard dude was "too much" for the Christians. So they had to convert him into an antichrist figure born from an Incubus (some sources say the Devil himself), but who chose to defy his evil ancestry and become a badass good guy xD
The mental trips they took just to justify a good guy using magic. And that's before them giving Arthur's main quest being somehow finding the Holy Grail... a magical artifact associated with Jesus Christ who died at Jerusalem... somehow ends up in Britain. Someone had to retake Geography.

Honestly though, the Sword in the Stone might have had some weird influences in how we view King Arthur nowadays, but Japan's currently doing worse. Fate Grand Order's taking it up to eleven. "Camelot" is already pretty weird, but "Avalon le Fae" is an LSD field trip with a good soundtrack xD
The TV show Merlin was good, tho.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Excalibur always had weird names. From its original welsh "Caledfwlch" to the Latinized version of that, "Caliburnus". Excalibur seems to have been popularized by the way the French said it. To their credit, writing or even pronouncing Welsh is an epic of its own.

Pretty sure Mordred didn't even exist originally. Whenever anyone mentioned Arthur having sons, they died really early into their infancy. Which then begs the question: where the hell did the Battle of Camlann even come from??

Lancelot also only existed since Late Medieval Romance, so 1400's, and he's very much written like it. He exists as a foil to Arthur with a "Chivalrous Romance" dynamic with Guinevere. He's not an original canon guy, and the whole infidelity arc was really just to push Romance's views on relationships and knighthood. So if he feels weird or off, or at all unrelated to the rest of the myth's message and epicness, you have the French to blame. It's an agenda they pushed.

Merlin got all that because apparently having a cool wizard dude was "too much" for the Christians. So they had to convert him into an antichrist figure born from an Incubus (some sources say the Devil himself), but who chose to defy his evil ancestry and become a badass good guy xD
The mental trips they took just to justify a good guy using magic. And that's before them giving Arthur's main quest being somehow finding the Holy Grail... a magical artifact associated with Jesus Christ who died at Jerusalem... somehow ends up in Britain. Someone had to retake Geography.

Honestly though, the Sword in the Stone might have had some weird influences in how we view King Arthur nowadays, but Japan's currently doing worse. Fate Grand Order's taking it up to eleven. "Camelot" is already pretty weird, but "Avalon le Fae" is an LSD field trip with a good soundtrack xD
The TV show Merlin was good, tho.

Excellent analysis. The issue regarding the Holy Grail being in England is it originally was a whole other magical cup. But, the storytellers changed it to the cup related to Jesus when England became Christian. The fact it would have been highly unlikely for such a holy relic to get out of Jerusalem never seemed to occur to anyone at the time.

I am genuinely enjoying looking through old, old threads on this forum.

Also reading Arthurian Legend. Man, The Sword in the Stone sure as heck romanticized the ever lovin' heck outta this.

We got Arthur having a bastard son with his sister that grows up to kill him.

We got Guinevere "breaking her vows" with Lancelot and that same bastard son.


We got Merlin being half demon, spawned from a woman after she had a visit from an incubus.

We got Merlin getting sealed inside of a tree by a hot water chick named Ninian.

We got Excalibur having some weird ass Welsh names.

We got Lancelot getting raised by a fairy godmother.

We got some accounts denying Arthur's death.

Phew.

And let's not forget all the stuff about the Fisher King and Grail.

Arthurian Legends are really all just one big clusterf**k of tales cobbled together from different storytellers each trying to make the tale relevant for their time. The elements pushing courtly love to the extreme are by far the weakest parts of the tale and should be taken with a large boulder of salt.

I'm certain at their core there was a "King Arthur" with a steel sword* and an intelligent advisor who attempted to consolidate all the local warlords in order to repel Roman invaders. He was successful for a time but ultimately ended up dying in battle. Anything beyond that is up in the air.

*Steel would have been seen as magical at the time. (500-ish A.D.?) Thus, why the Arthurian legends made such a big deal about it.

[Vyrerus]

Excalibur always had weird names. From its original welsh "Caledfwlch" to the Latinized version of that, "Caliburnus". Excalibur seems to have been popularized by the way the French said it. To their credit, writing or even pronouncing Welsh is an epic of its own.

Pretty sure Mordred didn't even exist originally. Whenever anyone mentioned Arthur having sons, they died really early into their infancy. Which then begs the question: where the hell did the Battle of Camlann even come from??

Lancelot also only existed since Late Medieval Romance, so 1400's, and he's very much written like it. He exists as a foil to Arthur with a "Chivalrous Romance" dynamic with Guinivere. He's not an original canon guy, and the whole infidelity arc was really just to push Romance's views on relationships and knightlyhood. So if he feels weird or off, or at all unrelated to the rest of the myth's message and epicness, you have the French to blame. It's an agenda they pushed.

Merlin got all that because apparently having a cool wizard dude was "too much" for the Christians. So they had to convert him into an antichrist figure born from an Incubus (some sources say the Devil himself), but who chose to defy his evil ancestry and become a badass good guy xD
The mental trips they took just to justify a good guy using magic. And that's before them giving Arthur's main quest being somehow finding the Holy Grail... a magical artifact associated with Jesus Christ who died at Jerusalem... somehow ends up in Britain. Someone had to retake Geography.

Honestly though, the Sword in the Stone might have had some weird influences in how we view King Arthur nowadays, but Japan's currently doing worse. Fate Grand Order's taking it up to eleven. "Camelot" is already pretty weird, but "Avalon le Fae" is an LSD field trip with a good soundtrack xD
The TV show Merlin was good, tho.

Actually Mordred existed with one of the few historical blivits along with Arthur in that they both died at Camlann. His romanticization into what he is in the legends and stuff by the guy from 1130 is all made up, but he's actually been there all along in some capacity

[Kalania]

Excalibur always had weird names. From its original welsh "Caledfwlch" to the Latinized version of that, "Caliburnus". Excalibur seems to have been popularized by the way the French said it. To their credit, writing or even pronouncing Welsh is an epic of its own.

Pretty sure Mordred didn't even exist originally. Whenever anyone mentioned Arthur having sons, they died really early into their infancy. Which then begs the question: where the hell did the Battle of Camlann even come from??

Lancelot also only existed since Late Medieval Romance, so 1400's, and he's very much written like it. He exists as a foil to Arthur with a "Chivalrous Romance" dynamic with Guinivere. He's not an original canon guy, and the whole infidelity arc was really just to push Romance's views on relationships and knightlyhood. So if he feels weird or off, or at all unrelated to the rest of the myth's message and epicness, you have the French to blame. It's an agenda they pushed.

Merlin got all that because apparently having a cool wizard dude was "too much" for the Christians. So they had to convert him into an antichrist figure born from an Incubus (some sources say the Devil himself), but who chose to defy his evil ancestry and become a badass good guy xD
The mental trips they took just to justify a good guy using magic. And that's before them giving Arthur's main quest being somehow finding the Holy Grail... a magical artifact associated with Jesus Christ who died at Jerusalem... somehow ends up in Britain. Someone had to retake Geography.

Honestly though, the Sword in the Stone might have had some weird influences in how we view King Arthur nowadays, but Japan's currently doing worse. Fate Grand Order's taking it up to eleven. "Camelot" is already pretty weird, but "Avalon le Fae" is an LSD field trip with a good soundtrack xD
The TV show Merlin was good, tho.

Merlin was a druid.

Some early texts on druids give them a very bad undeserved rep. (Druids were the educated elite of their day, the brehon; the village leader, the wise old man, etc)

[Midareyukki]

Merlin was a druid.

Some early texts on druids give them a very bad undeserved rep. (Druids were the educated elite of their day, the brehon; the village leader, the wise old man, etc)

Kind of.

Merlin as a character was always the son of an Incubus. This is because his first ever appearance on the Matter of Britain was in the 12th Century by Geoffrey of Monmouth, a Welsh cleric. What people theorize Merlin is, what Geoffrey did to make Merlin, was take up several different other figures in local folklore and previous versions of the Matter of Britain, and fuse them together to create Merlin. Then, he used the demon father justification to make it more "acceptable" for there to be a good-moralled magic wielder serving King Arthur.

The figures Geoffrey is theorized to have combined are:
- Emrys Wledig, a Welsh character anglicized as Ambrose Aurelian. He's a war leader who won a battle against the Anglo-Saxons. Emrys was originally the uncle of King Arthur, brother to Uther by Nennius in the 9th century. But then Geoffrey rewrote this name as being Merlin under a disguise to trick Vortigern.
- Myrddin the Wild, a Bard living in the Caledonian Forest of Scotland, who gave Merlin his name. In fact, Geoffrey wrote another book called "The Prophecies of Merlin", where he describes Myrddin's ramblings while under dementia to be Merlin making prophecies under a magical state.

Now, Bards were a version of Druids in Celtic communities, specifically someone whose job was to pass on traditions and stories orally, often through song. They shared this with Druids and Ovates. So you can consider that Merlin is indeed meant to be depicted as a druid, because he's based on Myrddin and his bardic ramblings. However, the term has since been really muddied by pop culture, and even by the 12th century, druidry had been pretty much dead for about 3 centuries. Nennius had already written additions to the Matter of Britain with a load of Christian ideas and motifs, so what we ended up with was a stereotype.

While Merlin is certainly meant to come across as an old-timey druid, the representation is a bit wonky and fantastical. And to justify the use of magic and having a pagan be portrayed as a good guy, they had to give him a reason for his heretical powers while also making it plausible as to why he'd help on such a christian-centric quest. So, Merlin was technically a druid? But he still isn't reeeally one, since to explain away his abilities, rather than admitting "he's a Celtic druid, which is why he can wield magic" (even if in their already fantastic idea of what a druid was), they still just said "nah, he's the son of a demon, the druid bit is just a byproduct".

Also

Actually Mordred existed with one of the few historical blivits along with Arthur in that they both died at Camlann. His romanticization into what he is in the legends and stuff by the guy from 1130 is all made up, but he's actually been there all along in some capacity

Yeah, Mordred existed in a poem with one line that says he and Arthur died at Camlann as "Medraut". But he's not the son of Arthur. We literally have no idea who Medraut is, or why he died at Camlann, or even if Arthur killed thim (and vice-versa)...
We just know nothing of Medraut. At all. He could have been some bloke from god knows where, just sprouted off the earth and we'd be none the wiser.

We know the name is super similar to Mordred's and their story end the same way. Past that, the whole character of Mordred really only showed up with Geoffrey... again >_>;... when he said Mordredus was Arthur's Nephew and betrayed him. There is a story of Arthur having to kill his son Amhar, not Mordred, but it has no context and it comes from Historia Brittonum, a 9th century story that starts with surviving Trojans settling Britain. So uhm. Yeah.

Mordred does have a precursor, but there wasn't any foothold other than "some dude called Mordred who died at Camlann with Arthur". And then they dog piled onto that. So if Mordred did exist, he was so so so so so minor the authors just didn't even bother giving him any more references than "he ded".

[Vyrerus]

the authors just didn't even bother giving him any more references than "he ded".

I mean, most all of the stuff around Arthur himself is that way too. There's just more people willing to go out on a limb about stuff surrounding Arthur since he's the pivotal figure in the legend.

Also OG Arthur sounds hella like the WoL. Cutting witches in half with daggers and slaying giants with Rhongomiant. Killing 960 men singlehandedly...

[Midareyukki]

I mean, most all of the stuff around Arthur himself is that way too. There's just more people willing to go out on a limb about stuff surrounding Arthur since he's the pivotal figure in the legend.

Also OG Arthur sounds hella like the WoL. Cutting witches in half with daggers and slaying giants with Rhongomiant. Killing 960 men singlehandedly...

It's what happens when you let the Celts have fun with mythological weapons. You can't just have a strong spear, no, it needs to explode into barbs and turn people into a pincushion (Gáe Bolg). A sword isn't a sword if it doesn't cut three hills in half (Caladbolg). And to them, King Arthur's removal of Excalibur from the stone would be laughable, as Nuada had to pose on top of a rock with his sword, have the rock scream (presumably from his weight), and have the sword whisper to it (Fragarach).

Also, on Rhongomiant... Still wondering what the hell Geoffrey smoked to rename it into "Ron".
"Ah yes, this is my sword Excalibur, my shield Priwen, my knife Carnwennan and my spear Ron."

[Vyrerus]

It's what happens when you let the Celts have fun with mythological weapons. You can't just have a strong spear, no, it needs to explode into barbs and turn people into a pincushion (Gáe Bolg). A sword isn't a sword if it doesn't cut three hills in half (Caladbolg). And to them, King Arthur's removal of Excalibur from the stone would be laughable, as Nuada had to pose on top of a rock with his sword, have the rock scream (presumably from his weight), and have the sword whisper to it (Fragarach).

Also, on Rhongomiant... Still wondering what the hell Geoffrey smoked to rename it into "Ron".
"Ah yes, this is my sword Excalibur, my shield Priwen, my knife Carnwennan and my spear Ron."

Lmao, that guy was literally like, "I'm gonna write a historical book... teehee." Knowing he was making it up. He was probably deep in his cups like, "What was his spear called again? RhonGo? Ron-go? Mi? Something? Screw it, it's Ron now."

[Kalania]

It's what happens when you let the Celts have fun with mythological weapons. You can't just have a strong spear, no, it needs to explode into barbs and turn people into a pincushion (Gáe Bolg). A sword isn't a sword if it doesn't cut three hills in half (Caladbolg). And to them, King Arthur's removal of Excalibur from the stone would be laughable, as Nuada had to pose on top of a rock with his sword, have the rock scream (presumably from his weight), and have the sword whisper to it (Fragarach).

Also, on Rhongomiant... Still wondering what the hell Geoffrey smoked to rename it into "Ron".
"Ah yes, this is my sword Excalibur, my shield Priwen, my knife Carnwennan and my spear Ron."

We have four treasures. There's the sword, the spear (all weapons...), to feed our people, we'll have the cauldron.

....damn, I need a fourth treasure and I can't think of one. (kicks a pebble...).... I know; a stone!

[Kalania]

Kind of.

Merlin as a character was always the son of an Incubus. This is because his first ever appearance on the Matter of Britain was in the 12th Century by Geoffrey of Monmouth, a Welsh cleric. What people theorize Merlin is, what Geoffrey did to make Merlin, was take up several different other figures in local folklore and previous versions of the Matter of Britain, and fuse them together to create Merlin. Then, he used the demon father justification to make it more "acceptable" for there to be a good-moralled magic wielder serving King Arthur.

The figures Geoffrey is theorized to have combined are:
- Emrys Wledig, a Welsh character anglicized as Ambrose Aurelian. He's a war leader who won a battle against the Anglo-Saxons. Emrys was originally the uncle of King Arthur, brother to Uther by Nennius in the 9th century. But then Geoffrey rewrote this name as being Merlin under a disguise to trick Vortigern.
- Myrddin the Wild, a Bard living in the Caledonian Forest of Scotland, who gave Merlin his name. In fact, Geoffrey wrote another book called "The Prophecies of Merlin", where he describes Myrddin's ramblings while under dementia to be Merlin making prophecies under a magical state.

Now, Bards were a version of Druids in Celtic communities, specifically someone whose job was to pass on traditions and stories orally, often through song. They shared this with Druids and Ovates. So you can consider that Merlin is indeed meant to be depicted as a druid, because he's based on Myrddin and his bardic ramblings. However, the term has since been really muddied by pop culture, and even by the 12th century, druidry had been pretty much dead for about 3 centuries. Nennius had already written additions to the Matter of Britain with a load of Christian ideas and motifs, so what we ended up with was a stereotype.

While Merlin is certainly meant to come across as an old-timey druid, the representation is a bit wonky and fantastical. And to justify the use of magic and having a pagan be portrayed as a good guy, they had to give him a reason for his heretical powers while also making it plausible as to why he'd help on such a christian-centric quest. So, Merlin was technically a druid? But he still isn't reeeally one, since to explain away his abilities, rather than admitting "he's a Celtic druid, which is why he can wield magic" (even if in their already fantastic idea of what a druid was), they still just said "nah, he's the son of a demon, the druid bit is just a byproduct".

.

Right, I was thinking of Myrddin.