Greased Lightning and Huton

[wereotter]

To be precise, it would take 7 GCDs to get three stacks of GL back if you form shifted into coeurl form and did demo followed by two sets of your rotation (6 GCDs).

GL didn't hold the job back as much as SE didn't know what to do with an otherwise decent level 50 job, and this idea was shown to be the case in 3.0, 4.0, and 5.0.

In the scenario you describe, no. It wasn't seven GCDs, it would have been eleven.

I suspect you forgot to count that form shift is on the global cooldown, which ups that count by one. Additionally before its removal, greased lightning had four stacks, not three. So you were looking at ten weapon skills before you got back up to dealing full damage, plus you had a speed penalty while in that situation making the time to recover longer. And when comparing it to Huton, if a ninja dropped huton right after using their only charge of ninjutsu, it would take them 20 seconds to be able to reapply it, but the monk would need more time than that to reapply, you were looking at 22-28 seconds to build back up all four stacks.

[Kaedys]

And when comparing it to Huton, if a ninja dropped huton right after using their only charge of ninjutsu, it would take them 20 seconds to be able to reapply it, but the monk would need more time than that to reapply, you were looking at 22-28 seconds to build back up all four stacks.

To be fair, though, Greased Lightning didn't require you to sacrifice damage to gain the stacks. Using a Mudra charge on Huton is a minimum of 650 potency lost, using EW's potency numbers, due to what could otherwise have been a Raiton. And that rises to 1500 potency with the new combo chain off Raiton. And it could conceivably be either a much larger damage loss, or a much longer time to reapply, if your next Mudra charge was due to be used on Suiton to set up a Trick Attack window (which 1 in 3 Mudra charges is used on in typical usage)

[wereotter]

To be fair, though, Greased Lightning didn't require you to sacrifice damage to gain the stacks. Using a Mudra charge on Huton is a minimum of 650 potency lost, using EW's potency numbers, due to what could otherwise have been a Raiton. And that rises to 1500 potency with the new combo chain off Raiton. And it could conceivably be either a much larger damage loss, or a much longer time to reapply, if your next Mudra charge was due to be used on Suiton to set up a Trick Attack window (which 1 in 3 Mudra charges is used on in typical usage)

Except it did. You forget that dropping greased lightning was a 30% damage reduction penalty on all your skills in addition to a reduction to your auto attacks (which were more powerful on monk than any other job) AND the slowdown on your global cooldown (a punishment it shared with ninja)

Doing the math on just the loss until you get to GL3 (becuase 3 to 4 ultimately only raised speed and auto attack damage) you lose 429 potency. That loss was amplified if you considered using a perfect balance to regain your greased lighting instead of doing the dragon kick - bootshine spam. This also doesn't count the damage lost for any chakra stacks you might have over capped while rebuilding or the damage lost on using it without full stacks. Same with holding onto an Elixir Field use while rebuilding.

And I refuse to acknowledge the Endwalker scenario since with GL not being a thing it's no longer something you can fairly compare. Monk likely would have also lot more potency in the next expansion for dropping GL than it did before the skill was removed.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Hands on my huton!

[Saefinn]

Greased Lightning was removed because they failed at fixing its problems. Huton doesn't have those problems. It gives you a reason to alternate your rotations to keep it up. Removing it would remove a dynamic of the job and it would be unnecessary to.

[Ariel_Valmont]

I don't really see the point Huton is already so easy to keep up.
You basically have nothing else to juggle during the downtime either, getting rid of it would just make it 1 2 3 with nothing else to pay attention to.

Greased lightning was already easy to keep up, no MNK is essentially what you described. And now here we have people calling for more homogenization. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so sad.

[Kolsykol]

Greased lightning was already easy to keep up, no MNK is essentially what you described. And now here we have people calling for more homogenization. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so sad.

I don't think that GL was hard to keep up either, but it wasn't as easy as Huiton.
I have mixed thoughts on the removal of GL, my main issue with it was that nothing replaced it really.

With the rework to MNK in Endwalker I probably won't mind it as much.

[Raikai]

I don't think that GL was hard to keep up either, but it wasn't as easy as Huiton

That was the thing... GL upkeep lost its relevance completely as expansions went through, with "improvements", and it became quite pointless and more of a nuisance itself. I wasn't a fan of it when it was actually challenging to keep it up, or even Enochian for this matter, but at least the latter was able to stay interesting for the people that enjoy this stressful playstyle.

Said that, after GL was gone, of course the job became naked and bland, but looking at what Monks are getting to make up for it, the job might finally be interesting for me to play with.

[Morzy]

Said that, after GL was gone, of course the job became naked and bland, but looking at what Monks are getting to make up for it, the job might finally be interesting for me to play with.

Bland is a good way of putting it. I didn't like BLM which is why I stopped leveling it after a while of my dissatisfaction with Enochain. Still, it wasn't as easy as keeping GL and telling the dissatisfied players to play another job like I do. Monk had far more issues to trifle with that the devs were bandaiding over the years.

[Ariel_Valmont]

Just to add to this, it helps also that Huton isn't on an especially busy class overall. Monk is basically a ceaseless barrage of mechanics that make the job utterly overwhelming without actually making it better, which is why the job has been in the gutter basically forever.

Monk had positionals, a rotation that got out of sync with itself (which made positionals 'harder'), an entire phase that alters your core rotation, an RPG proc system for Meditate stacks, team utility for defense AND offense, a buff to be maintained, a debuff to be maintained, a burst window buff, buffs that suddenly make positonals NOT matter, and 4 oGCDs you would regularly use in rotation, on top of greased lightning. And most of these mechanics have a lot of passive interplay that made messing one of them up make all the rest fall apart.

Ninja has a lot going on too, but comparatively less: Your positionals keep you in the back most of the time, you don't have random stuff popping up in rotation, your rotation is fairly fixed, and if you say... mess up your ninjutsu that isn't going to muck about with your Ninki that much. Its also easier to recover from mucking up on ninja. Its still a big DPS loss but getting back into the flow is pretty seamless. So there is still complexity in the job and a good ninja is going to do better than a bad one, but unlike monk messing up as a ninja doesn't feel like the game just punched you in the face: The mistake is visible but the role doesn't grind to a screeching halt as your muscle memory works against you and it takes you 3 full 1-2-3 rotations to get back where you were.

You must have had some strange MM on MNK, because it was just as effortless to restart your rotation if GL fell if as you are describing it for NIN.

NIN is the far more complex/busy job of the two, especially after MNK being gutted.