DPS who pull mobs

[Nethereal]

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

The line in the sand is this phrase: If everyone isn't dead you're not pulling enough.

Once you die and establish the pull amount you limit it to that.

[ForteNightshade]

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.

Your job is not limited to simply pulling mobs but establishing and maintaining aggro. Allowing the DPS to die out of some petty "revenge" because they ran ahead isn't doing your job. It's the equivalent of a healer refusing to heal because they got angry at someone.

Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

And in such a scenario, you're the one I'm initiating the Vote Kick on because you're causing an actual issue. Some rando DPS or healer pulling ahead didn't impact anything except to bruise your ego slightly. You electing to let said DPS die puts more work on me as the potential healer and/or simply wastes time since now we have a DPS with weakness. You're in the wrong no matter what justification you want to spin.

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

I'll break it down like this, based on level ranges.

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

Put another way. If you're pulling one pack at the higher level ranges, you're little more than a gimped DPS. Three mobs simply don't deal enough damage that a DPS couldn't tank themselves with a few spot heals. In other words, you're effectively useless pulling one pack at 60+. Even at 50 that could be argued, but that's low enough most people won't say much.

[SwordswornFox]

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

I think it's better to view it based on number of runs you've done in particular dungeons. Knowing good pause points for a healer to top you off mid-gathering before continuing, knowing when its okay to use your gap closer to reach the next mob versus face tanking into the group for aoe's immediately. etc.

So if a tank has run it enough to be comfortable with wall-to-wall, they should do it if they know the healer can handle it.

[Mavrias]

I think it's better to view it based on number of runs you've done in particular dungeons. Knowing good pause points for a healer to top you off mid-gathering before continuing, knowing when its okay to use your gap closer to reach the next mob versus face tanking into the group for aoe's immediately. etc.

So if a tank has run it enough to be comfortable with wall-to-wall, they should do it if they know the healer can handle it.

you should never be stopping mid gathering. if the healer needs to top you off while gathering you've done something wrong.

all stopping before you're done pulling accomplishes is allowing mobs to get extra hits on you and falsely signaling to the rest of the group that the pull is complete, causing them to potentially waste cooldowns and resources.

[LianaThorne]

I'll break it down like this, based on level ranges.

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

Put another way. If you're pulling one pack at the higher level ranges, you're little more than a gimped DPS. Three mobs simply don't deal enough damage that a DPS couldn't tank themselves with a few spot heals. In other words, you're effectively useless pulling one pack at 60+. Even at 50 that could be argued, but that's low enough most people won't say much.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this, just putting that out there. I agree with how you put the differences and wasn't really arguing that tanks shouldn't be pulling full at 80. I'm just saying I see people also trying to do this in lower level dungeons (for example I had a healer run off in the opposite direction of a newbie tank in Stone Vigil within the last 2-3 days and pull packs on their own down the hall while the tank was grabbing the ones in a side room and subsequently died within 10 seconds along with the DPS that followed after them and get pissy at the tank about it). So I was curious who would be considered at fault for that.

[LianaThorne]

The line in the sand is this phrase: If everyone isn't dead you're not pulling enough.

Once you die and establish the pull amount you limit it to that.

But that doesn't speak for new players who don't know that. It's still making the assumption that they should know that right off the bat, first pull. It doesn't teach you in the Hall of the Novice to pull wall to wall every time (literally the exercises put you against 3 at max, hence why a lot of new people pull 1 pack of 3 at a time) and most people's first real tanking experience is Satasha (which doesn't tell you to pull wall to wall either). I'm asking about what should be done in those situations or if it's just a blanket: everyone is griefing no matter what and new people don't exist/should have some hivemind knowledge absorbed in from the void on Day 1.

Personally in every dungeon I've been in where a tank was pulling pack by pack, no one gave a shit except for maybe once. If people did give a shit they didn't say it and I'd be willing to put money down that the reason is because of how some people are afraid/anxious to correct people.

So, is this assumption on tanking/approval for other role to pull mobs coming from a vocal minority or is this a hidden majority that is valid in their expectations that's sitting on their issues? Which, if that's the case, isn't the fault of anyone other than the person not willing to talk and continuing to enable the incorrect tanking methods. Either way, it's pretty unfair to push the assumption of griefing on tanks that pull small because they could be new or not confident enough in their abilities yet to pull wall to wall. If this is something like a level 80 dungeon, fair enough, tanks should be more than comfortable enough by then to pull big and healers should be able to compensate for it. However, if this is like a 50 or under dungeon and the tank is new and clearly not up to snuff, some sort of respect should be given to let them get their feet on the ground rather than automatically pointing the finger that they just want to waste everyone's time or doing their job for them. People don't learn by being carried or having the experience they need taken up by someone else who wants to rush.

[OrpheusKappa]

If you have a dps pulling extra for you it means you are not pulling enough and they are trying to nudge you to pull more.

[ReynTime]

The range should have been higher, because it's pretty freaking lame that the highest savage gear can't keep its ilvl in the highest level expert dungeon among other things.

[Tranquilmelody7]

If people would consider me a bad tank for allowing DPS to run ahead of me and subsequently pull, I'm humbly take the L.

I have Asperger's, and sometimes I experience momentary lapse of awareness.

I also really enjoy taking in the settings of the dungeon, my teammates glamour, or I might feel like offering a brief greeting - all which may present enough of an opportunity for a DPS to pull ahead of me.

I also wish to clarify that one particular dungeon I had mind when creating this thread was Castrum Meridian.

The pace of the 2 MSQ dungeons are much slower than most instanced content in the game, which naturally result in players often striving for efficiency less than they normally would, which can end up with DPS who still wish to bring their A game to promptly pull.

I apologize if my tone seems defensive here, I just wanted to explain my perspective further and hope I may have succeeded.

On a final note, I definitely agree with the notion that wall to wall puling during leveling dungeons should be performed with much greater discretion than those level cap dungeons.

At best, some specific wall to wall pulls during leveling dungeons may require to much defensive/ healing resources to be efficient(ALL of the soldiers in Shisui of the violet tides), and at worst, impossible to manage(Aurum Vale).

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

At best, some specific wall to wall pulls during leveling dungeons may require to much defensive/ healing resources to be efficient(ALL of the soldiers in Shisui of the violet tides), and at worst, impossible to manage(Aurum Vale).

Not to attempt and argue or anything, but Shisui's pulls aren't that bad so long as healer and tank are competent and using their full kits. I've had no trouble healing through the big pulls for the soldiers there even in baseline level 60 gear. The only real factor is how long the mobs take to die, which is outside the tank and healer's hands most times even if they're both doing their best to AoE.



Also to the guy who wants to act like a child and throw tantrums if anyone ever dares pull ahead or pull for them: grow up. This ain't high school, and you are actively contributing to a worse run by refusing to do your job to 'teach someone a lesson' than the DPS or Healer are by pulling extra on you.