Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[DPZ2]

You can get behind a dummy. It does not turn.

Ah, it does, indeed, not turn. Must be the way people position the dummies that led me to believe that -- not really much room to practice positionals as a Monk when the training dummies are placed against a wall. I noted just now (yeah, testing as 80 Monk) the dummies in the FC yard were actually moved away from that 'back wall', so that positionals could be practiced. Learn something new every day.

[linayar]

Ah, it does, indeed, not turn. Must be the way people position the dummies that led me to believe that -- not really much room to practice positionals as a Monk when the training dummies are placed against a wall. I noted just now (yeah, testing as 80 Monk) the dummies in the FC yard were actually moved away from that 'back wall', so that positionals could be practiced. Learn something new every day.

My old FC would have the dummies facing the wall/corner, so you will always face its back and sides.

[Mahoukenshi]

it's not the top tier players that are obsessed with who deserves what. if they're obsessed with anything it's fairness. want the same reward. do the same challenge. basic fairness.

its the lower end players who are obsessed with entitlement and deserve.. they want all the shiny things but they dont want to step up to the challenges, they feel entitled they feel they deserve. they feel they shouldnt have to earn it fairly..

Yeah...No. Not always. Again, cheap stereotyping helps nobody. The raiders who want equality are the reasoable ones who don't foam out of rage and hatred for the bad, bad "casuals" (which, of course, also consist of good and bad apples). WoW has shown more than once that (in terms of manners and behavior) bad raiders can cry and flood forums with tears just as good as bad casuals when their "effort" is undermined by for example gear resets with each xpansion ("muh raid gear is replaced with normal quest rewards") or they fear to lose their bragging rights. Again, not every raider but the dunderheads thinking that being mature is only related to cheese.

As for the topic at hand: While I'm sure this topic goes down into the same "raider vs non-raider" slugfest, I'm all for tools helping self-improvements.
In general, RNG groups can expect from me two things - 1) Doing mechanics as good as I manage them and 2) Using skills as it seems logical, i. e. AoE on mobs, not AoE on boss or < 3 enemies. What they can not expect: Me practicing any form of serious rotation/opener sequence. It reminds me of junior high memorizing and learing vocabulary. It's boring and would make me sleepy really fast. I read my tooltips and arrange the skills as I see it suitable (as a notoric clicker). In exchange, I guarantee that you'll never see me in extreme, savage or ultima content and - outside of roulettes - only in story dungeons pre-Trusts or story trials once.

[Ralph2449]

The raiders who want equality are the reasoable ones who don't foam out of rage and hatred for the bad, bad "casuals" (which, of course, also consist of good and bad apples)

I remember saying that everyone should have a path to max ilvl in WoW and all the elitists jumped out of the crowd to rage and attack me and similar posts because how dare the "plebs" have access to the same game gear as their "special", "deserving", "superior, "elite" selves, that is one of the most clear signs of how unhealthy certain elitists can be when their ego depends on unique rewards and gear to the point they are horrified at the idea that a casual through very slow grinding might actually get to have the same gear as them D:
I honestly have no issue with good players who play the game for their own reasons but the moment they start doing things like the above then they have crossed the line.

This shows the extend of their psychological issue as well as how they will actively try to negatively affect the community and withold things from others and even push against any devs that might try to make a game more accessible to all, I honestly am thankful FF14 cares about making the game accessible to all rather than the "elite" who have also deluded themselves into thinking they are more "deserving" of the devs resources and attention even though they are in the minority.

Party with expectations listed? You need to be able to meet those expectations. The person/people who made the party are looking for a very specific playstyle that they find fun. If you are joining the group and cannot play in that way, you are in the wrong.

There's a major problem with that and it is the consequences and effects that has to a community.

People start with X requirement and keep inflating it until they get their desired roflstomp run, ignoring the blatant issue of gatekeeping for now those types of inflated requirements become normalized and you see more and more people have these inflated requirements, many times not even knowing why said requirements were invented so all they know is that they should religiously uphold them which slowly turns the community more and more elitists because basic performance is not tolerated anymore, you either follow the elitist way or you are out aka you either treat the game as a job or you are out, minimum or average requirement equals "bad low skilled player", thinking of doing things differently? Sorry you need to follow the elite approved TM strat, no thinking, only following elite, which sooner or later said expectations start creeping into lower tiers which will include learning groups.


This in time keeps spreading and dividing the community, at one side people who have accepted the elitist mentality and treat the game as a JOB where they NEED to have X performance no matter what and would go through ridiculous things to achieve it while now demanding others do the same(And more start falling victim to "I am so skilled, my ego depends on video game performance, how can they be so bad and wipe") and people who are barred from that now seen as "elite content" because the inflated requirements and toxicity of elitists/tryhards is too much to bother, hence we have the hardcore elitists that delude themselves they are better than those 'dirty casuals who are too low skilled to do our "elite content" that only us high skilled people can do' and the casuals thinking high end content is not worth the effort cuz you have to treat the video game like a job plus these people at high end are obnoxious.

Perfect example of that process can be seen in WoW if one has played it for some time, "elite content" such as mythic raids is nothing more than just harder heroic with an extra mechanic or two, yet because of the above process many simply cant be bothered to touch it because of how inflated requirements are in many guilds as well as the fact that tryhard elitists are so obnoxious and toxic only other tryhard elitists can handle playing with them so anyone who wouldnt adopt the elitist mentality and treat the game as a job is sooner or later gone. Not only that but because this was never about the game, encounter and instead was about ego they often dont even understand why something is "meta" or "good" and because of that ignorance they end up worshiping incredibly flawed and inflated requirements which leads to further toxicity towards anyone not being a metaslave.

You even show that attitude with the person who started going "I am just asking for minimum requirement" yet later admitted it was an inflated requirement, they try to mask their behavior like that by pretending it is about common sense yet the truth is revealed after some quick questioning.

What you said should be left for statics and a group of people who have chosen to play and improve together, not pugs.

Not skilled enough in some cases is a temporary state, but one that still exists. I am not skilled enough to beat endgame top tier content. Could I be skilled enough one day?

My point exactly, because this is a scripted video game meant to be won and not some extremely complicated irl task like theoretical physics you dont need days, months years to beat an encounter, a few wipes are usually more than enough.

I remember queing for extreme zephirot and ended up in a group where we wiped like what, 6 times since we had a number of sprouts? But we got it down at the end because figuring out what to do in a single encounter is not hard, it only requires some practice and a few wipes, something that shouldnt be such a huge deal for certain people who act as if wasting time or wiping is the end of the world.

I also don't think that there is anything wrong with having your self esteem and ego being boosted by being good at video games.

That is where I would heavily disagree because video games are made to be won and make you feel better, they manipulate you and give you visual signs to assist you with the challenge therefore lessening the real challenge further by design , to take pride in beating scripted video game content is similar to taking pride in doing a basic task, worse is video games create the illusion of challenge which leads to people falling for having their ego depend on a video game, and honestly I wouldnt mind if people did that, the issue is that it leads to obnoxious elitists who start negatively affecting the people around them. Then there's the obvious topic of "If a company makes you feel better and deludes you into feeling you achieved something big all in exchange for money, that sounds kinda unethical" but marketing is unironically legal so this species has a long way before grasping such topics.

What experience? You literally don't have a single job at 80. You can't access the current savage tier. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about here. And don't even mention your WoW experience, WoW and XIV are not the same game with a different community.

I was wondering when someone would try go through the typical elitist "let me check your achievements and if you havent done X your argument is invalid" which is a common tactic when one cannot argue for their beliefs so their only course left is to try undermine them through other means, are you gonna attack my grammar next?
I know how this game is played because I have seen the same in WoW in the form of "Oh you only do LFR so you dont matter, oh you only do normal so you dont matter, oh you only do heroic so you dont matter, oh you only have aotc so you dont matter, oh you only have the first 3 in mythic,those are easy so you dont matter, lol you havent beaten the last 2 mythic bosses you cant talk, Oh you cleared mythic? well it wasnt early in the patch so its irrelevant or you must have been carried so what you said is wrong, funny how the goalposts keep moving when someone really wants to believe you are wrong ;^)

I ve played a ton of mmos throughout the years and often on the higher end through the perspective of someone who cares about understanding them rather than beating them so I can pretend I am skilled and beat my chest in front of others(in a video game, a thing created to be beaten because its scripted content), but more importantly I ve observed many game communities and how they behave and evolve, which is why i actually explain things indepth and to the core instead of blindly defending that delusional feeling that makes me feel better at the expense of others. I explained in detail why your mentality ruins games and the proof can be seen in the disaster that is WoW.

Funny thing WoW is not even that bad. Sure you run into the few that will rag on someone for their numbers but if you press your buttons and not trying to push for keys without understanding how to play most just ignore it. Please stop hyping up the few negative experiences as the standard.

Negative experiences is the standard for anyone who will not embrace elitism, tryhardism and metaslaving in WoW, good luck spending hours queing for groups to get gear as a non meta spec, or you ll just say make your own group not realizing you wont be getting people to join unless you have a ridiculous IO score which good luck getting via pugging if you didnt start from day one of the xpac, but hey, Uncle Bobby got you, just buy a wow token for real life money and spend the gold in a boost so maybe after 2 months you will be geared enough that someone might invite cuz of that cuz it certainly wont be cuz your spec aint meta.

The thing is because tryhardism and elitism has quite literally infested all areas of WoW, game is filled with clueless elitists and metaslaves who dont understand encounters or what makes something meta yet they blindly worship it as a holy book cuz their streamer/wowhead/MDI told them these are the only good specs for m+

I have no doubt WoW is great for elitist tryhards who want to feel special and unique and above the "casual plebs" and that is why casuals are unsubbing in droves.

You're wrong here. The people who have the obsession with "deserve" are typically not the "elite" players as you call them but it is the lower end ones.

Oh that is why elitists start raging when a game becomes more accessible, content is nerfed, rewards are gives via casual and solo achievements?

They believe they "deserve" those rewards and the "casual plebs" dont, which is exactly why they react so extremely when things like these happen.

if anyone can beat any encounter given time then what is the problem with keeping rewards tied to it

I dont know, probably something about the fact that you are not solely responsible for an encounter and you have to deal with many other people which is often the main major social barrier stopping many people from said content.

Let's say SE expands trusts to savage raids and extreme trials and of course keeps the rewards and tune it in such a way that the encounter depends on solely you playing well and doing decently, when they do that and only then can you say "if anyone can beat any encounter given time then what is the problem with keeping rewards tied to it" but then it would be true, anyone who would spend enough time there would get the reward.

what ffxiv does is the opposite. it never helps players rise to the chalenges instead it promote laziness and entitlement. it brings the challenges down to the player and this is why players get bored and find the game unrewarding.

No, for healthy people FF14 is a really fun game that lasts for ages and the continuing increase in subs and popularly supports that, for elitists whose ego depends on video game "achievements" and being given exclusive rewards to differentiate them from the "casual plebs", for them then the game is "unrewarding", you see, healthy individuals dont base their ego on video games so that is not what we look for when we play one.

[ZedxKayn]

I was wondering when someone would try go through the typical elitist "let me check your achievements and if you havent done X your argument is invalid" which is a common tactic when one cannot argue for their beliefs so their only course left is to try undermine them through other means, are you gonna attack my grammar next?
I know how this game is played because I have seen the same in WoW in the form of "Oh you only do LFR so you dont matter, oh you only do normal so you dont matter, oh you only do heroic so you dont matter, oh you only have aotc so you dont matter, oh you only have the first 3 in mythic,those are easy so you dont matter, lol you havent beaten the last 2 mythic bosses you cant talk, Oh you cleared mythic? well it wasnt early in the patch so its irrelevant or you must have been carried so what you said is wrong, funny how the goalposts keep moving when someone really wants to believe you are wrong ;^)

I ve played a ton of mmos throughout the years and often on the higher end through the perspective of someone who cares about understanding them rather than beating them so I can pretend I am skilled and beat my chest in front of others(in a video game, a thing created to be beaten because its scripted content), but more importantly I ve observed many game communities and how they behave and evolve, which is why i actually explain things indepth and to the core instead of blindly defending that delusional feeling that makes me feel better at the expense of others. I explained in detail why your mentality ruins games and the proof can be seen in the disaster that is WoW.

I ran out of argument according to who? Do you think that pointing out something extremely relevant to the topic at hand about you means that I'm resorting to ad hominem? But it's okay when you keep bringing up players' ego over and over again?

I don't care about your grammar, don't talk about having experience in something you clearly don't and call the unhappy people who do and disagree with you toxic, entitled gatekeeping elitists with ego issues. Do you realize how insulting you come across as? (inb4 you call my ego fragile for pointing out that you're disrespectful as hell)

Repeating myself, FFXIV isn't WoW, FFXIV isn't any of the other MMOs you have played, moreso than any other game XIV has a HUGE "toxic/entitled casuals" issue and probably the worst skill: playtime ratio you're gonna see in any video game only because the game doesn't teach anything about jobs, basic competency isn't required to progress through MSQ and people are coddled into not just mediocrity, but down right vegetable-levels of play. And because skilled players are not okay with that in content designed for them, they have existential issues?

Your obsession with ego is frankly a lot more telling about yourself than the players you criticize.

[Ralph2449]

XIV has a HUGE "toxic/entitled casuals" issue and probably the worst skill: playtime ratio you're gonna see in any video game only because the game doesn't teach anything about jobs, basic competency isn't required to progress through MSQ and people are coddled into not just mediocrity, but down right vegetable-levels of play. And because skilled players are not okay with that in content designed for them, they have existential issues?

The amount of entitlement, belief that casuals are terribad and you are skilled is so great in just that sentence of yours.

Thanks for proving my point i guess xD

[ZedxKayn]

The amount of entitlement, belief that casuals are terribad and you are skilled is so great in just that sentence of yours.

Thanks for proving my point i guess xD

I mean weren't you saying that people good at the game should know that they are? What point are you trying to make now?

Yes, the majority is bad at the game, because the game offers no tutorial, there is no shame in that (well to an extent at least, until they become toxic about it), but there is shame in coming in high end content unprepared and feeling entitled to a clear. But you don't even have any PF experience, I'm not sure anymore why I'm wasting time trying to argue with someone who genuinely don't know what they are talking about.

[Colt47]

The amount of entitlement, belief that casuals are terribad and you are skilled is so great in just that sentence of yours.

Thanks for proving my point i guess xD

Actually, the thing he is pointing out is the technical debt from having the game run for so long. Think about it: Every time they add content and do a new expansion, they redesign the game systems to keep it fresh and mothball the last expansion. Sure, if you are only one expansion in, the last expansions content isn't too hard to manage, but then you go to the third, and now there are two historic sets of content that need retooling. Then you go to the fourth, the fifth, etc.

It is absolutely predictable that the content before the current expansion would no longer serve the purpose of teaching people their jobs. The content is literally no better than a training dummy that offers no hints, and often the dummies don't have enough HP to go through a full rotation.

The only way they can fix the "learn the job" part is to simplify the dps jobs down and have the learning tools be a component of the job itself. Bard and Ninja are horrible to level jump because they lack some of these tools, or they are built into quests that accompany them. The jobs that have the best learning tools are the fixed rotation jobs (think Samurai, Dragoon, Blackmage, Warrior, Redmage, etc). The other problem is that they merged aesthetics with mechanics on the jobs: Yoshi P. even said he would never made the weapons a component of the class itself. There's no reason a bard couldn't use a handgun, or a warrior couldn't opt for a shield and sword.

This is also why I think SE might have a hard time with adding learning tools to savage in-game. I had other ideas for what they could try, but it has to be something that can work with what is already there and easily thrown in, like a learning mode that can reveal the zones a boss targets with an ability. Or hints on what the ability does when the party wipes.

[Awha]

I


Negative experiences is the standard for anyone who will not embrace elitism, tryhardism and metaslaving in WoW, good luck spending hours queing for groups to get gear as a non meta spec, or you ll just say make your own group not realizing you wont be getting people to join unless you have a ridiculous IO score which good luck getting via pugging if you didnt start from day one of the xpac, but hey, Uncle Bobby got you, just buy a wow token for real life money and spend the gold in a boost so maybe after 2 months you will be geared enough that someone might invite cuz of that cuz it certainly wont be cuz your spec aint meta.

That is the thing one does not have to pug. Yes pugs General do just follow the flavor of the month, and you will run into the few that will seethe if you dare play a non meta class I know I currently play feral.That said this mindset does not stem from having a dps meter more so from how blizzard approaches class balance.

So in the end why the beef over a meter that will allow the community to hold others accountable?

[Ralph2449]

Actually, the thing he is pointing out is the technical debt from having the game run for so long

You dont use the words he did to describe that problem nor you take ownership of specific content as "yours".

What you are explaining on the other hand I understand, the thing is that happens in almost all big mmorpgs for the reasons you mentioned.

My argument on that subject is that people who care about improving for their personal sake will still do either way, people who are interested in improving always do no matter what the tutorial tells us(Which is why the "if they listened to you everyone would be so bad they couldnt get through dps checks" argument is so flawed), people who are not interested in improving because they have no reason to since the content they do can be done easily wont care either way and will ignore the imagined tryhard tutorial until they get in a situation that pushes them improve, such situation being the higher end content which can be accessed by all, and in these situations these people do improve which again ruins the repeated generalizations elitists have thrown in just this thread about that iconinc ultra bad casual that is so bad and low skilled they cant do anything right.

And again I ll have to repeat the point that what matters is the minimum requirements set by the devs(not the inflated requirements send by a bunch of elitists who try to get a roflstomp group going), in a realistic group you ll always have a few players who personally care about their performance and some that dont, that group still perseveres either because the good players were that good that they were able to play well enough to carry the group performance or because the people that didnt care ended up improving in order to beat the encounter.

At the end what comes down to is that some people are allergic to wiping or helping others without an elitist commanding attitude and I am seeing that as their problem, if they cant handle that they should stick to their static that exists to roflstomp content.

That is the thing one does not have to pug

Ah yes the just "find decent friends m8" argument, if it was so easy people wouldnt be complaining about pugging since ages now, especially in a community so divided where you wont be finding many players in the middle, though I know elitists like Preach "You gotta be trolling to be playing non meta" gaming do honestly believe they are really nice and friendly people, just like a bunch of jerks together might consider each other real great dudes. What matters is how outsiders perceive you, not your buddies in this case.

why the beef over a meter that will allow the community to hold others accountable?

Because when a community is ignorant, elitist, tryhard metaslave, they are wrong, they negatively affect people around them, degrade the experience for players and in general, wrong things should be stopped and fought against whenever they affect you or not.