Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[Raelsar]

Seems someone is ruffling some feathers here... and I think it's mostly a case of failing to communicate the severity of the situation they're coming from, which is resulting in jumping to some exaggerated conclusions.

To put it simply, the WoW community (outside of static-type groups) is in such a poor state that it's basically impossible to find an enjoyable experience without being lucky enough to find a group of like-minded individuals (usually a guild, which acts as both FC and static in WoW); you'll be blocked by arbitrary and excessive measures such as item level (often requiring higher than the rewards given by the content you're trying to clear), and even a completely outside-the-game rating tool which is used (quite literally) by 95%+ of the community. To join a random group is to put yourself at risk for being insulted & ridiculed for the slightest mistake; being told to "quit the game" would be on the mild end of the spectrum, far worse things are said without any consequences. So keep in mind, seeing anything which may represent the slightest hint of "elitism" can easily set some players off, because they're coming from an environment where it was wielded against them with impunity. This is also why a lot of former WoW players in FFXIV don't exactly have fond memories of where they came from, and may be a bit zealous in defending what they found here.

Imagine being unable to complete the MSQ due to how poorly the community behaves, making the required group content for new players a dreaded experience.
That is how broken the WoW community is right now, where the the only way to not go through a hellish experience is to find a static to do absolutely any group content. It really is that bad.

---

In any case, this why I said parsers represent a slippery slope earlier in the discussion.
I've seen the deep-end of where they can go, and I would rather not see it happen here.

The current detente with them being permitted if the information is kept to the user themselves is fine, and we are still able to have reasonable discussions about what's required and what should be done. However, it's set-up in a way that the negative behaviours they can often spawn if left unchecked can easily be cracked down on by simply enforcing the existing rules; a pretty basic "don't make me come over there" situation, and it's working. The current stance of SE is that they want to foster a friendly and welcoming community; unfortunately, the nature of competitive environments (common in many online games) means a few people are all too willing to discard civility and courtesy to advance their own ends. Luckily, it's not them this game is aiming to cater to.

[Ralph2449]

In any case, this why I said parsers represent a slippery slope earlier in the discussion.

That is my main point really, I am not saying that pandering to X elitist idea/mentality/system Ff14 will instantly turn into WoW, that won’t happen overnight, but when such ideas are accepted and embraced through time it will turn into a toxic elitist mess.
thankfully it seems the devs also understand that and have WoW show them what happens when you focus on high end at the expense of everything else so I do feel safer but that doesn’t mean I ll be complacent and trust that will remain so forever hence vigilance is important.

So when I notice an elitist mentality/argument, like the ones only us ‘elites’ deserve’ good rewards and they shouldn’t be accessible to others I will absolutely fight against it because tolerating such elitist ideas is a slippery slope that will turn the game toxic after a while and like the community has proven, the best way to stop elitism is to stop it early from growing deep roots no matter how much they complain about the invented toxic casualism to look like the victims.

if you read the comments or listened to many of the higher players

Of course I don’t listen to what they say, people lie to themselves very often, I care about that their actions say, and when elitists start moaning when content is nerfed, when rewards become more accessible to casuals via casual or solo challenges, or the uproar they cause here because the devs don’t treat them like the special elite citizenry they have deluded themselves to believe they are because they beat high end content and thus should be more ‘worthy’ and ‘entitled’ to dev resources than the majority of the playerbase which is why the fact that the devs aren’t prioritizing ultimates has caused so many fights in here.

When one observes such an unhealthy behavior, we know that words used by such players are often lies and excuses to protect themselves, hence why I keep using the term unhealthy, lying to yourself and believe in delusions is unhealthy and wrong.

Just like that person who refuses to admit this is about ego even when the behavior makes it quite clear that self esteem issues is the internal motivation driving that person, of course the person who is suffering from his behavior cannot admit that, their ego and more importantly belief that they ‘achieved some hard’ which makes them ‘special’ and ‘deserving’ would crumble, and sadly humans would always choose denial and living in a lie over introspection and admitting harsher personal truths cuz that means you have to rethink your beliefs in a core level

EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has equal access to that content and those rewards

Yeah I ve seen this excuse in WoW often, everyone ‘technically’ has access so it must be fine, not like there’s social barriers and many other elitist driven problems that make content insufferable to do and therefore lead to casuals leaving in droves in their latest expansion that doubled down in your desired elitist mentality.
Where rewards and even gear progression is withheld from casuals, but hey there shouldn’t be a problem, technically everyone can spend hours, suffer playing through insufferable elitist tryhard metaslaves and spend hours getting 2 shot by them and boosters with mythic gear, no, clearly very accessible to all : ^)

If they choose not to because there lazy or whatever..

Ah yes, the typical elitist excuse, those casuals ‘plebs’ must be really bad, unskilled, lazy, incompetent to do our content, that is why they aren’t doing it, not like other issues exist that were described multiple times even in this very thread.

The fact that you are so against of making a game truly accessible and want to withhold your ‘special high end’ rewards from others and choose to demean people who want the rewards but can’t get them only proves what I ve been saying from the start, your ego depends on keeping achievements/rewards locked because it makes you feel special

I bet you would love WoW where they literally made it require achievements to upgrade gear past a certain level so those casual plebs can never have the gear you have

which leads me to assume your relatively new.

if that assumption is accurate then you're not really in a position to say its a really fun game that lasts for ages you haven't played long enough. and if you talk to people or leaders

Ah yes because people shouldn’t really talk unless they support what narrative the elite wants to spread, people are just too stupid to get what they are saying so they shouldn’t talk unless they have x elite title.

I am sure even by this forum that elitists and of course their in groups they fit with dislike many aspects of the game and would see it changed and slowly turn into WoW which is why your very anecdotal evidence means little to me.

Mmo population is using a number of algorithm and online booths to gauge the sentiment, popularity and activity of multiple mmos, the algorithms they use are the same for each game so even if the exact numbers aren’t accurate, the comparative charts are, and that shows ff14 has been CONSISTENTLY increasing in popularity and numbers unlike WoW that people keep giving it a chance and abandoning it in droves, which is were we see a WoD level sub drop in shadowlands because just like WoD they chose to focus on high end at the expense of casuals.

So yeah I think I ll trust that data over random elitists that seem to be whining they don’t get enough attention they ‘deserve’ because they believe beating a video game designed to be beaten makes them entitled to dev resources.

but it seems to me your saying you want to be lazy and have all the shinies handed to you freely on a silver platter and anyone who thinks thats wrong or unfair is an elitist gatekeeping toxic pos..

Well if your ego wasn’t attached to said ‘shinies’ you wouldn’t have a problem with it or even care, similarly to how in WoW people are using your same argument towards anyone demand fair gear for all because god forbid those dirty casual ‘plebs’ get mythic gear right? Imagine having to be on equal footing instead of keeping people down so you can further delude yourself you are better.

Actual ‘elite’ aka skilled who happen to be healthy because they don’t need external sources to tell them how great they are have no problem with giving everyone a path to progress to max ilvl, but unhealthy elitists foam to the very idea.

[ZedxKayn]

snip

The irony of writing this drivel and calling the boogeymen deluded.

No one is moaning when gear becomes easier to obtain through echo and unsync, or when people who don't do Savage can get their augmented gear when the mats become available. Absolutely no one.
The only one moaning here is you.
If you want current gear, come and get it, no one is preventing you from it. But you won't get it for free. You'll have to learn your job and strats for it, like we all did. If you do what we all did, good on you, no one is going to care that you're geared.

Don't like the content? Then it, and the rewards tied for it, are not for you, simple as. Not being so obnoxiously entitled isn't that difficult.
No content in this game is gatekept as far as I know, people are completely free to choose to partake or not. Like I'm not going to get the Cerberus mount by choosing not to do DRS, or the Dragonsung tools by not wanting to bother with expert recipes, people who choose not to do Savage and play accordingly won't get their Eden weapon.

And for the nth time, this is FFXIV, this isn't WoW or any other MMO you've played before, the communities are not the same.

[Vahlnir]

the best way to stop elitism is to stop it early from growing deep roots no matter how much they complain about the invented toxic casualism to look like the victims.

Honestly? I've seen far more toxic casuals in this game compared to toxic elitists. Just saying. But this is by and large a casual MMO experience so...lots of casual players, which means some of them are going to be jerks. The same could be said about any group of players though. It's the internet. Jerks are going to show themselves because they can remain anonymous, and they can be any type of player.

[Ralph2449]

Honestly? I've seen far more toxic casuals in this game compared to toxic elitists. Just saying. But this is by and large a casual MMO experience so...lots of casual players, which means some of them are going to be jerks. The same could be said about any group of players though. It's the internet. Jerks are going to show themselves because they can remain anonymous, and they can be any type of player.

Like you said its the internet so you are bound to have to deal with the occasional jerk etc, my focus on that post was less on general toxicity and more about the specific brand of toxicity that comes along with elitism which leads to some pretty much implying or downright saying others dont "deserve" X things for not being elite, inflating requirements which indirectly inflates their ""achievement""(Which they often roflstomp so the challenge was heavily reduced), heavy gatekeeping which happens once inflated requirements become the norm, the constant implications that anyone not doing "elite" content is terribad, unskilled, lazy, incompetent and thus "undeserving" of X etc, the entitlement that the devs should focus on them because they are "elite" even if a minority, complaints when devs nerf something or make things more accessible and attempts to influence the devs to pander to their unhealthy mentality. (which if ever happens the game would suffer greatly, thankfully that has not been the case and doesnt look like it will be but that is why I suggest vigilance, anyone who has lived long enough has seen that nothing is forever stable, because something looks safe and good today doesnt mean it will stay that way)

The influence and effects of things like that if left unopposed are far more insidious than they looks on the surface.

When it comes to general toxicity I feel SE has definitely done a better job than most at least by actually hiring GMs and taking their ToS seriously, not perfect obviously but honestly the best I ve seen in the many many western mmo i ve played.

[Lyth]

Rewards are 'elitist'. The value of a reward comes from its rarity. The ideal reward is one that is easy enough for you to get, but difficult enough that none of your friends have it (yet). That difficulty could translate into time, skill, gil, and so on. Should you feel entitled to these rewards for no effort? No.

If you're going to be participating in something skill driven, you should definitely have tools to check how you are improving. This is why PvP games often give you access to replays and stats so that you can gauge your performance. If you're going to be participating in optional content geared at a higher difficulty setting, you should have that information made available to you.

Actually, perhaps that's the solution. They should introduce an Elitist Allagan Node NPC who follows you around, offering optional tips on how to improve, if you're interested. There can be different personality settings which lets you adjust how friendly/strict it is. ("Cause of death: Standing in blue fire. Tip: Did you know? Not all fire is friendly. Moving out of the orange AoE circles increases your chances of survival, fragile mortal. Your APM on this pull was: 26. Were you sleeping?")

[Dzian]

I bet you would love WoW where they literally made it require achievements to upgrade gear past a certain level so those casual plebs can never have the gear you have

Played wow. Hated wow. Never touched wow again. This was 7 maybe 9 years ago.
I just found the button spam combat tediously mundane (worse than xiv). I wasnt a fan of the art style either. Got bored before I even hit level 60 so cant comment on its endgame.
Funny that you think im elite though... I dont even think Ive cleared a single ex primal this expansion nor set foot in savage.. I'm basically one of those people you keep calling "casual plebs"

Ah yes because people shouldn’t really talk unless they support what narrative the elite wants to spread, people are just too stupid to get what they are saying so they shouldn’t talk unless they have x elite title.

Show me where i said that.. what i said was you cant really comment on the games longevity if you havent played it very long.. twisting words around does you no favours

.Well if your ego wasn’t attached to said ‘shinies’ you wouldn’t have a problem with it or even care, similarly to how in WoW people are using your same argument towards anyone demand fair gear for all because god forbid those dirty casual ‘plebs’ get mythic gear right? Imagine having to be on equal footing instead of keeping people down so you can further delude yourself you are better.

However if people's ego wasn't attached to having said shinies Those "Casual Plebs" As you frequently call them shouldn't care less if they didn't have something.

In fact though they are the ones who do care and kick off because god forbid someone has something shiny they don't have or are to lazy to get themselves.

Whats even funnier though is you've said players should be on equal footing which ultimately is the exact argument many higher players make. You want the shiny. Go do the thing to get it. That is as equal footing as you can possibly get.

Expecting to get the same shiny rewards as other players but with none of the effort other players made to get them is not equality at all. The E word your looking for here is entitlement which comes back to the common "I pay the same sub so I deserve the same shinies argument"

The only thing keeping players down is themselves. What you want isn't equality at all. It's handouts because your own ego or low self esteem can't handle someone having a shiny reward that you don't have. That's unhealthy.

[Liam_Harper]

no matter how much they complain about the invented toxic casualism to look like the victims.

I like how you say this when your long rant is full of attacks, digs and insults towards the "elitists". It's basically the definition of toxic.

[WoW]

Oh boy, why have I not noticed this gem of a thread!

So when I notice an elitist mentality/argument, like the ones only us ‘elites’ deserve’ good rewards and they shouldn’t be accessible to others I will absolutely fight against it because tolerating such elitist ideas is a slippery slope that will turn the game toxic after a while and like the community has proven, the best way to stop elitism is to stop it early from growing deep roots no matter how much they complain about the invented toxic casualism to look like the victims.

Too late, the idea is already tolerated and approved by Yoshi P himself! He acknowledged the effort and worth of ultimate weapons and titles to the "elites" that did them. So Ultimates will never be unsynced and the rewards will only be obtainable by the "elites" (unless you're one of those casuals that would pay for it). He even locked the Morbol mount behind synced, no echo, full BLU party ROFL.

So yeah, you want something? work for it! Stop being a toxic entitled casual.

[Axxion]

I like how you say this when your long rant is full of attacks, digs and insults towards the "elitists". It's basically the definition of toxic.

now you are being toxic for using logic here. We dont like you kind around these parts. :P