Tools they could add besides DPS meters... (For endgame)

[rance-sama]

Tbh proplem with that is all wipe and cant tell were low link is on games.

That's the kind of mentality that DPS meters cause. The "weak link" in a party will get shamed or yelled at because they didn't smash buttons fast enough for X or Y reason.

[ZedxKayn]

That's the kind of mentality that DPS meters cause. The "weak link" in a party will get shamed or yelled at because they didn't smash buttons fast enough for X or Y reason.

If someone isn't pulling their weight, they are not entitled to clear, it's bull that the rest of their party has to waste time wiping and being held back because someone isn't playing at a savage level in savage content.

[Colt47]

If someone isn't pulling their weight, they are not entitled to clear, it's bull that the rest of their party has to waste time wiping and being held back because someone isn't playing at a savage level in savage content.

That's the deal we all signed up for when doing savage. I just think that having more tools that actively assist in learning mechanics would be beneficial and avoid encouraging the elitism that kind of plagued WoW. DPS meters do have a place, but it's actually kind of narrow in the grand scheme of things. You still have to hit Enrage first or at least get that far before really gauging peoples performance. People aren't going to waste strength tinctures on mechanics during learning, and for DPS I would bonk them on the head if they are trying to max deeps when learning a fight. Learn the damn fight, then max deeps. You can't max deeps if you don't even know where to stand yet, and thank goodness they don't have mini-enrage timers...

Wait... E8S had the add phase... oh noes...

[ZedxKayn]

That's the deal we all signed up for when doing savage. I just think that having more tools that actively assist in learning mechanics would be beneficial and avoid encouraging the elitism that kind of plagued WoW. DPS meters do have a place, but it's actually kind of narrow in the grand scheme of things. You still have to hit Enrage first or at least get that far before really gauging peoples performance. People aren't going to waste strength tinctures on mechanics during learning, and for DPS I would bonk them on the head if they are trying to max deeps when learning a fight. Learn the damn fight, then max deeps. You can't max deeps if you don't even know where to stand yet given how complicated the damage rotations are on a lot of the jobs.

Progging and clearing are different tbh

Like if someone join an intermediate relativity prog but does SB numbers that prevents their party from even clearing the door boss? They are not putting in the work expected for harder content and it's not toxic to remove them from the party based on that

Or if enrage is consistently being met with lots of percent left and there is someone obviously consistently underperforming, it's alright for people putting in the work to not want to play with them

[Ralph2449]

I just think that having more tools that actively assist in learning mechanics would be beneficial and avoid encouraging the elitism that kind of plagued WoW. DPS meters do have a place, but it's actually kind of narrow in the grand scheme of things.

The problem with elitists and tryhards is that they are quite entitled and unironically expect everyone to perform on X level(Still remember seeing a tryhard whine about zurvan extreme p1 pools not being perfect, no, nobody died or had a problem, it simply wasnt his static level of coordination) and love to use DPS meters to blame people when in reality DPS is not even the problem but it is always the easy excuse, people who will focus on blaming dps when a dps check is failed or enrage happens often are quite wrong since the reason those things happened was because people failed mechanics therefore people werent alive to dps and/or had the rez debuff, those were the real reasons the dps check failed, not someone not being l33t optimal at all times.

It is really rare for everyone to do the mechanics well yet still fail the dps check when the game is so generous on its DPS requirements since there is quite a big gap between best performance and performance required to clear, even though certain tryhards expect 90 parses for content that requires 40 but that is also done because if you pretend the requirements is that high your achievement must be that high too right? This is completely a psychological problem with people whose self esteem depends on video games.

[ForteNightshade]

The problem with elitists and tryhards is that they are quite entitled and unironically expect everyone to perform on X level(Still remember seeing a tryhard whine about zurvan extreme p1 pools not being perfect, no, nobody died or had a problem, it simply wasnt his static level of coordination) and love to use DPS meters to blame people when in reality DPS is not even the problem but it is always the easy excuse, people who will focus on blaming dps when a dps check is failed or enrage happens often are quite wrong since the reason those things happened was because people failed mechanics therefore people werent alive to dps and/or had the rez debuff, those were the real reasons the dps check failed, not someone not being l33t optimal at all times.

It is really rare for everyone to do the mechanics well yet still fail the dps check when the game is so generous on its DPS requirements since there is quite a big gap between best performance and performance required to clear, even though certain tryhards expect 90 parses for content that requires 40 but that is also done because if you pretend the requirements is that high your achievement must be that high too right? This is completely a psychological problem with people whose self esteem depends on video games.

The whole reason "Skip Soar or disband" became a meme is basically it was laughably easy to skip. It literally required a basic opener because Zurvan does nothing. There aren't any mechanics to worry about by that point in the fight. If you understood the basic functions of your job, you'd skip Soar. Therefore, groups unable to skip weren't able to perform at that minimal a level. It isn't elitism to expect reasonable levels of damage in harder content. And no, barely meeting enrage isn't "reasonable" unless its the first week or learning party that only just reached said enrage.

You keep citing "tryhards" and "elitists" yet seemingly disregard players like a BLM dealing 15k in E11S. But it's okay because the group can still clear, right? Even if upwards seven other players have to perform at a higher level simply to compensate for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. That is what frustrates players. People rarely expect top tier numbers in pugs unless its a parse run. They do, however, hope for decent numbers like I mentioned above. Not only because it leads to faster kills but also potentially removes added risk.

[Ralph2449]

The whole reason "Skip Soar or disband" became a meme is basically it was laughably east to skip. It literally required a basic opener because Zurvan does nothing. There aren't any mechanics to worry about by that point in the fight. If you understood the basic functions of your job, you'd skip Soar. Therefore, groups unable to skip weren't able to perform at that minimal a level. It isn't elitism to expect reasonable levels of damage in harder content.

Reasonable*=See inflated

I wasnt talking about soar, I was talking about flare star which is why I mentioned p1, that phase that literally lasts for less than a minute, I was in a group with a tryhard who unironically complained about the placement as if he was in some static tryhard group, it was a pug and it was not something that caused anyone problem and there was more than enough safe space to move to, he just complained because it wanst that perfectly stacked flare star IN A PUG.

So no it wasnt about a dps check, it was just a delusional tryhard who for some reason expects people to have done the fight in some l33t group a million times before and follows their l33t strat at all times cuz of course everyone must have done that fight when it was current.

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping.

But it's okay because the group can still clear, right?

Yes, when the content has generous checks and even allows for mistakes so you can still clear after that then it is okay, the world didnt end, someone just didnt play well, instead of being offended by the fact not everyone is a tryhard maybe you should have felt better for yourself for having above average performance to get everyone through, I am starting to think this western mentality that seems to be repulsed by anyone underperfoming comes for the delusional "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" meme since it is the same thing but for irl.

That is what frustrates players.

Maybe players shouldnt be playing a game if they cant have fun without expecting people to be on their already INFLATED level, this is a video game, not a job, not something you do to please others and definitely not something that your self worth should depend on.
If you are frustrated cuz someone is learning or is new, you are the problem for having severely unrealistic and false expectations and that is on you, if you treated this like a video game you wouldnt be having such problems.

[Dzian]

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping..

In truth that encounter was also designed by the same developers who designed the mechanics to accomodate 2 tanks.
With that in mind you can't really label it elitism when everyone was running a 1 tank set up specifically for the purpose of bringing some extra dps to skip that mechanic.

It wasnt expecting the 4 damage dealers to step up there game and perform above and beyond the minimum required of them.
It was taking a 5th damage dealer in place of a second tank to do the extra damage required to skip that mechanic.
That being said taking 5 damage dealers and throwing criticism when they only do the damage of 4 damage dealers isn't elitism it's fair critisism.

Even the average Joes were throwing up party finders with a 1 tank set up, it wasn't just the top tier players. The laughable thing about that fight is because every PF group was running 1 tank setups and as such there were a ton of tanks who weren't able to get groups, Which then led to parties of 6 tanks and 2 healers skipping soar mechanics when parties of 5 dps jobs couldn't... That's why its such a meme...

It is really rare for everyone to do the mechanics well yet still fail the dps check when the game is so generous on its DPS requirements since there is quite a big gap between best performance and performance required to clear, even though certain tryhards expect 90 parses for content that requires 40 but that is also done because if you pretend the requirements is that high your achievement must be that high too right? This is completely a psychological problem with people whose self esteem depends on video games.

Ironically it's usually the "bad" (insert better choice of word) players whose self esteem often depends on video games. This is where the sentiment of escapism stems from. People who are lazy, depressed, lonely or feel they can't accomplish anything in there life often escape to video games as a means of finding self esteem.. This is why they often complain about elitism, gatekepping, tryhards.. and a bunch of other terms.

In comparison a lot of the better players (again terrible word choice) play video games to supplement life not escape from it. They hold jobs, families, lives, and still make time to take on the various challenges video games throw at them...

Where as the players who use games as escapism are often the entitled ones. who whine when they can't get that shiny that someone else has so cry for it to be made easier and handed to them on a silver platter. They complain about gate keeping and other such stuff when in reality the only one blocking there path is themselves. No-one is blocking you from entering a piece of content and getting that reward because they dont want you to have it, so there is no gatekeeping or elitism.. Hell they'd probably pat you on the back and say good job if you did take it on and smash it instead of saying "NO you can't have this..."

This is what kills a lot of the content in the game. The way all the rewards and trophies lose all there value and significance because people feel entitled to the same rewards but with none of the effort... It's not about how many people have x trophy or x item. Its about what it represents generally.

I'm far from a top end player these days so iIm definitly not an elitist. I smashed Coil In ARR, dabbled with Alexander in HW. by SB my raiding was basically slot filler for a couple of friends so I have a few clears but sporadic. Omega 1 2, 6, 7, 10 I think? and I've never set foot in eden savage because there's just no real motivation to do so when they keep nerfing everything...

In my mind it's like busting ya ass off in the 500m to win a gold medal. and then find everyone got one at the finish line... You could have walked and still got one (kinda destroys the significance or value.)

[ForteNightshade]

Reasonable*=See inflated

I wasnt talking about soar, I was talking about flare star which is why I mentioned p1, that phase that literally lasts for less than a minute, I was in a group with a tryhard who unironically complained about the placement as if he was in some static tryhard group, it was a pug and it was not something that caused anyone problem and there was more than enough safe space to move to, he just complained because it wanst that perfectly stacked flare star IN A PUG.

So no it wasnt about a dps check, it was just a delusional tryhard who for some reason expects people to have done the fight in some l33t group a million times before and follows their l33t strat at all times cuz of course everyone must have done that fight when it was current.

So a basic opener is inflated in an Extreme Trial fight? That's literally the barest of minimum expectations to have of anyone.

Could they have been a Black Mage, Bard or Machinist per chance, all of which had cast times in Heavensward, and in the case of Black Mage, very minimal movement tools? If so, they were likely upset someone baited a Flare Star AoE near them, which focused excessive movement. While not something to rage over, it's certainly annoying, and yes, worthy of being brought up. Perhaps instead of defaulting to calling someone a tryhard if they show even the slightest interest in maintaining their damage, you might notice these things. Granted, they could have threw a gasket, though based on your responses in this thread alone. I suspect it's you making them out to be the bad guy far more if only because in less than a paragraph, you've insulted them several times.

And you show your elitism by literally what you said, the devs did not intend for soar to always be skipped else it wouldnt exist, it is a mechanic that exists to be done, by saying everyone should skip it or disband, it means you expect everyone to have performance above what the encounter actually requires which is chosen by the devs, therefore you have falsely inflated the requirements for that content which results in elitism and gatekeeping.

And now we see you throwing "elitism" around for even the slightest disagreement. Not everyone wants to perform at the barest minimum and just "get by". If a party advertises "Skipping Soar," then by joining their party you're agreeing to such a prerequisite. If you aren't capable of doing so, you have no business joining. That isn't elitism but simple courtesy. If there aren't any parties available tailored towards your preference, make your own. If it doesn't fill quickly, then the community has spoken.

Speaking of which, what the devs intended is, frankly, irrelevant. The community decisions what standards exists. A prime example is healer DPS. The dev team never intended for healers to contribute large amounts of DPS. In fact, Yoshida infamously claimed they don't calculate healer DPS at all despite releasing Gordias and Mids, which were downright impossible without. That statement has since but walked back to claim they don't calculate healer DPS outside of early week prog, or at least not heavily. Regardless, the community has more or less thrown out that entire philosophy be it due to equal contribution arguments, lackluster healing design both mechanical and encounter wise or simply adapting to the systems given.

That last statement is important as I can flip your argument and say if they didn't want players setting higher expectations like Skip Soar. They shouldn't have put it at a HP threshold low enough players can easily skip if they're reasonably competent at their job. Expectations don't arise out of thin air but from adaptation within the game rules.

Yes, when the content has generous checks and even allows for mistakes so you can still clear after that then it is okay, the world didnt end, someone just didnt play well, instead of being offended by the fact not everyone is a tryhard maybe you should have felt better for yourself for having above average performance to get everyone through, I am starting to think this western mentality that seems to be repulsed by anyone underperfoming comes for the delusional "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" meme since it is the same thing but for irl.

My issue with this mentality is that hypothetical Black Mage only cleared on the backs of better players putting in a greater effort then they were willing to. If everyone shared their mentality, they wouldn't meet the DPS check, no matter how generous. Therefore, why is it okay for players to essentially leech—queuing into content woefully above their skill level—yet players criticising them for doing so are "elitists"?

Put another way. We all started off bad and/inexperienced at some point. Except some of us opted to learn how to improve. Why can't others if they want to attempt harder content?

Maybe players shouldnt be playing a game if they cant have fun without expecting people to be on their already INFLATED level, this is a video game, not a job, not something you do to please others and definitely not something that your self worth should depend on.
If you are frustrated cuz someone is learning or is new, you are the problem for having severely unrealistic and false expectations and that is on you, if you treated this like a video game you wouldnt be having such problems.

Your definition of fun isn't the holy grail. I'm not particularly keen having someone like the aforementioned Black Mage waste my time in Savage level content because they can't be bothered to put in any effort beyond the barest of minimums. It's disrespectful to upwards of seven other people who are attempting to clear say, E10S, but now have to deal with more mechanics they may otherwise have skipped or risk things like damage downs or repeated wipes due to someone having no idea what they're doing.

And your now shifting the goal posts. We aren't talking about new players and you know it. People weren't demanding Skip Soar and whatnot in learning parties. Most people are far more accommodating in a learning party, provided you're there to learn the actual fight and not your job. It's when players who don't know their job join clear/farm/two chest players that upset people as they have business doing so.

Scenarios like Mikey_R are not "extremely rare" if you frequent PF whatsoever. They are, in fact, quire common. Hence why it's been a continuous talking point for several years. Hell, I only just saw someone on stream who when told to upgrade their i500 weapon (last tier BiS), they promptly responded with "Why? Who cares?" This was in E11S, by the way. And with your logic, since they cleared they're above criticism despite using outdated gear.