Savage raiding still needs work

[Rilifane]

The savage raiding and class design are tightly coupled in this discussion. They actually did have animation based dodging back with original shiva and Ramuh. Problem was, graphics got flashy and you could have a hard time seeing what the boss was doing (And we still have that problem when doing Limit Breaks, to the point you really want to make sure you know where you are at in the fight when you fire them off).

The other issue, and I'm not going to beat around the bush with this: being a DPS in this game is a feels bad experience in Savage. To make them interesting to play, they have positionals on melee plus rotations and cooldowns to maintain, and out of all the jobs I swear melee dps die the most, followed by ranged dps who outside of dancer have to check their bars during combat to make sure they are hitting OGCDs on time, third by healers, and tanks being by far the easiest to play. I wouldn't advocate any change to the savage mode system unless they do something to make it easier for dps to keep their OGCD's firing on time and keeping rotations running. Even samurai being as simple as it is sometimes requires correction during the fight.

Hard disagree there.
You're not supposed to get uptime, positionals, oGCDs and timing right just like that. It's normal that, depending on your class, at first you're probably varying degrees of bad because you either tunneled on your hotbars and died or focused on mechanics and messed up the rotation.
DPS have a learning curve and that's a good thing. It's bad enough that tanks and healers got so dumbed down.
There are plenty of ways to keep everything going and get your rotation right while playing mechanics but figuring out the correct greed timing is obviously a matter of trial & error. But they are definitely there and it's not some forbidden magic, it's entirely possible without resorting to crazy uptime strats. Please leave the skill ceiling where it is.
Savage is accessible enough as it is and greed isn't even neccessary to clear. It's optional and for people who want to push their performance. If someone doesn't bother it's on them that playing DPS is a "bad experience".

[Colt47]

Hard disagree there.
You're not supposed to get uptime, positionals, oGCDs and timing right just like that. It's normal that, depending on your class, at first you're probably varying degrees of bad because you either tunneled on your hotbars and died or focused on mechanics and messed up the rotation.
DPS have a learning curve and that's a good thing. It's bad enough that tanks and healers got so dumbed down.
There are plenty of ways to keep everything going and get your rotation right while playing mechanics but figuring out the correct greed timing is obviously a matter of trial & error. But they are definitely there and it's not some forbidden magic, it's entirely possible without resorting to crazy uptime strats. Please leave the skill ceiling where it is.
Savage is accessible enough as it is and greed isn't even neccessary to clear. It's optional and for people who want to push their performance. If someone doesn't bother it's on them that playing DPS is a "bad experience".

A savage encounter shouldn't be about learning your job. The fact tanks are "dumbed down" is actually a good thing for savage because otherwise it would be an inaccessible trash heap that no one would do outside of a very small percent of people. They need way more learning assist technology and other improvements to make it easier to pick up. No idea why we are sitting around in this day and age still depending on the youtube community.

[Alaray]

A savage encounter shouldn't be about learning your job. The fact tanks are "dumbed down" is actually a good thing for savage because otherwise it would be an inaccessible trash heap that no one would do outside of a very small percent of people. They need way more learning assist technology and other improvements to make it easier to pick up. No idea why we are sitting around in this day and age still depending on the youtube community.

harder content generally teaches people to play better to clear the content. so... yeah it teaches you, and that's also like, the express purpose of the first turn lol

dumbing down every job to a 1 button rotation just makes playing them boring, where there's no ceiling to try and climb towards and no means of showcasing player ability. may as well play a mobile autobattler at that point

[Colt47]

harder content generally teaches people to play better to clear the content. so... yeah it teaches you, and that's also like, the express purpose of the first turn lol

dumbing down every job to a 1 button rotation just makes playing them boring, where there's no ceiling to try and climb towards and no means of showcasing player ability. may as well play a mobile autobattler at that point

No one is advocating for one button jobs. Just from the standpoint of designing a fight, in order to have so many controls like they do now, they have to create massive pauses between attacks just so people can look away from the action to manage their own job actions. Every single person does it and even on warrior, which is one of the simpler ones, people still have to do it. That's why DPS are the ones that die the most: because they have to juggle so much on their plate during those pauses that it goes over the time limit before the next attack pattern. If someone practices a lot they can mitigate it a bit, but even after months of using the same job it still happens.

FYI what we are talking about isn't the job actions or even the number of actions, but developing patterns that can be learned and followed without removing ones sight from the action on the screen. Some jobs like Machinist are pretty decent, but compare Paladin to Gunbreaker and you can easily see some problems.

[Absurdity]

A savage encounter shouldn't be about learning your job. The fact tanks are "dumbed down" is actually a good thing for savage because otherwise it would be an inaccessible trash heap that no one would do outside of a very small percent of people. They need way more learning assist technology and other improvements to make it easier to pick up. No idea why we are sitting around in this day and age still depending on the youtube community.

It's not about learning your job. Having learned how to play your job in normal content or "in theory" should be the absolute baseline of even stepping into savage. It is about adjusting that theoretical knowledge of your job to work in an encounter that isn't just a target dummy.

The difficulty in savage was never just "learning the dance" but it was always "learning the dance while performing your job adequately", learning how to play your job while also performing the boss mechanics correctly has always been part of the difficulty .

Reducing job complexity to a mindless button spam just so you can concentrate on the mechanics dance is not only a detriment to savage itself but also to every other content in the game.
With such a design there is literally nothing to keep you engaged once you learn the mechanics and consequently all the content that is less mechanically complex, a.i. 90% of the content, would just become a boring slog that you do on auto pilot.
You can see this clearly with tanks, there has not been a single expansion before Shadowbringers where I have been this bored while doing content on my tanks.

[Vyrerus]

A savage encounter shouldn't be about learning your job. The fact tanks are "dumbed down" is actually a good thing for savage because otherwise it would be an inaccessible trash heap that no one would do outside of a very small percent of people. They need way more learning assist technology and other improvements to make it easier to pick up. No idea why we are sitting around in this day and age still depending on the youtube community.

It's actually a bad thing on tanks, because it's taken away a lot of what's made them enjoyable. They have similar requirements, sans positionals, to what melee must do to keep uptime. This tier I returned to raiding, and now more than ever before I see tanks with minds so numbed that they constantly forget simple things like be second on the hate list. Starting pulls without tank stance on, even many pulls into the night. Improper swaps, despite swapping being easier than ever before. It's not even that they're new. They're actually veterans, and they're so bored out of their skull that the only time they're enjoying the content is in Ultimate or playing a different job in Delubnum Reginae Savage.

In fact, if it weren't for our ability to play other jobs on a whim, I'm sure many of them would have quit FFXIV this expansion.

[Rilifane]

A savage encounter shouldn't be about learning your job. The fact tanks are "dumbed down" is actually a good thing for savage because otherwise it would be an inaccessible trash heap that no one would do outside of a very small percent of people. They need way more learning assist technology and other improvements to make it easier to pick up. No idea why we are sitting around in this day and age still depending on the youtube community.

You completely missed the point.
I didn't say you're learning your job there, I said that there is a learning curve which is tied to each encounter. For every single boss you have different timing, different greed opportunities etc. That's the learning curve. If savage fights were designed to be just "learn mechanics once, ez-peez from then on" because there is no room for improvement on your class for that specific encounter, savage would be even more short-lived than it already is.
People need something to keep them on their toes. The opportunity to squeeze out more dps by getting your greed timing down is a huge incentive.

If you're learning your basic rotation in a savage fight, you're doing something wrong. It's expected that you already know that while savage is there to challenge you and build on that.

[Themarvin]

would support 100% visual everything, with no tells or the likes in any form of text or log form.

[Colt47]

would support 100% visual everything, with no tells or the likes in any form of text or log form.

Good luck brave soldier, for you have not seen the wrath of LB3 (Well, perhaps literally if you are one of those people that hate life and turned off all visuals, than you can see it)

[RocciaSolida]

The one thing I don't understand is why the whole cast bar-animation shenanigans are not consistent, for instance in E5S to dodge Judgement Jolt you had to watch the animation whereas in pretty much every other mechanics you're supposed to look at the cast bar