Why is the Maturity Lvl of People Playing this game so much higher than that of WoW?

[Ralph2449]

You should expect people at that level to be decent at it.

It's only a game. Don't tie your self-worth or the worth of anyone else to it, please.

Imo that attitude doesn’t belong anywhere really because of basic math.

Let me give you an example with numbers

100% performance, that would be perfect performance in a target dummy
93% performance, that would be perfect play within an encounter (obviously depends on encounter)
80% performance, that would be an example of a good/decent player within an encounter.

Now in an encounter there is a require common bar performance ‘required’ to beat the encounter, that performance % gets higher the higher content you do and that group wide number but obviously it is never 90%, it is very often far below what the elite believe it is since they want to believe they achieved something great but even in extreme the group wide performance requirement can be as low as 60% or even less, there’s always a big gar between a good player and the performance requirement of almost all group content.

Of course it never happens that everyone in the group is at 60% performance, there’s always good players and below average players, your group might have someone at 40% performance which is below ‘required’ performance yet if you have someone who is at 80% which makes the encounter doable just fine, some elitist would say that the good player shouldn’t ‘carry scrubs’ yet this feeling only exists because they have forgotten this is a video game and not their source or self worth so they love to try to push ‘scrubs’ further down to tell themselves they are elite and superior again IN A VIDEO GAME.

You would think these ‘elite’ players would revel in the chance to try play better in order to get the group ahead with their skill but nope, gotta blame the average player whose ego isn’t based on video game performance.

*obviously gear also plays a major part in influencing that % but this is an example

Eh... it's not that simple, but I think we can see some high-end players (perhaps it could be those more accustomed to WoW's more "direct" cultural norms) chaffing under the enforced requirement to behave themselves.

Which is exactly why I remind them that this ain’t WoW, that tryhard elitist attitude isn’t tolerated

In other words, lead by example.
Don't be bossy, be the guy who helps the team out.

Pretty much this, if I see a mistake happening in a fight I don’t start raging at that person, I say something neutral like ‘be careful to avoid stacking lighting, it is an one shot’, nobody is targeted, nobody is insulted, nobody pretends to be better than others to putting people down, someone is merely saying how the fight works which is very very very different than than telling people what to do because you have deluded yourself you are some elite who deserves the respect of others in a VIDEO GAME.

[KeshLives]

You would think these ‘elite’ players would revel in the chance to try play better in order to get the group ahead with their skill but nope, gotta blame the average player whose ego isn’t based on video game performance.

Well, the truly elite players don't do this.

It's the tryhards who *think* they are elite and feel they 'need' to be recognized as elite that cause the problems. They're the ones who look for someone to blame, instead of looking to themselves. I see it in real life, too, so it's just a manifestation in game of the same people you see irl who *must have someone to blame*. Taking responsibility for themselves is unheard of. They're perfect, and already know all there is to know.

Just people. The less you have of this type, the better off you are. Thankfully, FFXIV discourages these people. WoW does not.

[Fluxating]

Some people need to adjust their expectations for the content they're doing. Most do but some don't. Some think the sort of performance required in savage should also be done in normal mode even though that's far above the requirement to complete the content. The flip side happens too. Some people think that if what they do in normal mode is fine then it should be fine in savage even though that could be below the requirement. There are people on both sides who need to adjust their expectations. Not saying you are one of these people, just speaking generally.

And some people need to accept the fact that bad players are unavoidable. They're in every single game. Sure it may suck if you feel that you can't criticise them openly due to how SE views harassment, but lets face it; those who want to learn will learn at some point with or without your input, and those who don't won't ever improve no matter what they're told. And anyone who thinks being able to openly criticise would improve things I can tell you from my time in WoW being able to openly criticise people doesn't magically make the playerbase more skilled. There are plenty of terrible players in WoW.

True, everyone learns differently and at different speeds, some try to improve and see very little results while others just flat out refuse. You're also right that those players will always exist, and with the player base growing they are becoming more common. however I don't believe that expecting a level 80 player to know what a stack marker is wrong, that being met with hostility for offering advice to someone who repeatedly fails mechanics is somehow ok or even accepted, that being fed up and speaking out about that subset of the playerbase somehow puts you in the wrong.

I used to really enjoy helping out new players back during ARR and HW, now I rarely even bother as it hardly seems worth the time to try.

[Starshower]

I've been playing this game for 3 years, and only twice I remember being the victim of toxic players. Those 2 times playes banded together to mock my playstyle and insult me, and tell me to uninstall the game. One time was in thornmarch hard, I was the offtank with no tank stance, the main tank died and I didn't notice and didn't pick aggro, so the moogles killed everyone and we wiped. I was having a really bad day, everyone put the blame on me and mocked me. I felt really sad, put the loudest ones on blacklist and that was that. Another time, I was a white mage farming antitower for the relic. I only did holy and assize, doing maximum damage and no one died ever. I had everything in control. But the tank thought me letting him on 20% health without heals (because I was in control and knew he wouldn't die) was a crime and banded together with the friend he queued with and said how I was a terrible healer, and should uninstall the game, among other ridicule. I just blacklisted and went on with my day.


Those were the only 2 times in 3 years I was a victim of toxicity. On FCs there were annoying people and petty fc drama but this exists in any game. In general I find this community to be very friendly and helpful, I don't understand how some pepole claim it's worse than wow... I've seen people claim ffxiv has the most toxic community of any online game. This is insane, it's like people are desperate to put flaws on this game. And no, talking behind people's back and being passive aggressive is not the same as people attacking / kicking newbies from dungeons, being overtly toxic and saying racist and homophobic slurs. One is actually worse than the other, even if both are bad.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Hoo boy, just come back to this thread after few days and it turns into 'elitism vs casualism'. Well anyway...

... however I don't believe that expecting a level 80 player to know what a stack marker is wrong, that being met with hostility for offering advice to someone who repeatedly fails mechanics is somehow ok or even accepted, that being fed up and speaking out about that subset of the playerbase somehow puts you in the wrong.

I used to really enjoy helping out new players back during ARR and HW, now I rarely even bother as it hardly seems worth the time to try.

While I strongly agree with your stance here, sometimes there's just nothing better we can do but to stay silent because how differently SE views 'harassment'-cases compared to us lots. It is ingrained in their culture that being very direct are often seen as being rude. They would prefer to just back off from the scene without expressing their discomfort too obviously. This is why i.e. savage DF actually works in JP DC (works, as in letting the queue pops). Whether the run is a success or not is another different story; but when things go awry, all they say will be something like "Ah, I don't think this duty can be finished with this party... let's just leave and try another time." before voting to disband and call it a day. Rather than telling people upfront, they would rather leave players having some 'self reflection' moments to find their mistakes.

NA DC (Idk about EU) obviously comes with different culture ingrained in their mind so ... *BAM*, surprise
Unless SE decides to take account of this difference, we're pretty much stuck to what we have right now (and have to deal with sheer amount of passive aggressiveness when things goes south, if any at all.)

[Ralph2449]

In general I find this community to be very friendly and helpful, I don't understand how some pepole claim it's worse than wow... I've seen people claim ffxiv has the most toxic community of any online game. This is insane, it's like people are desperate to put flaws on this game.

Yeah it is hard to imagine anyone saying that with a serious face, the only reason I can imagine anyone saying that is if they have not actually played WoW or played WoW but have not pugged anything, WoW has one of the most toxic communities next to LoL and because the game is designed for the high end at the expense of more casual content if you want gear progression, you either suffer and accept the toxicity or leave, which is what many people are doing leaving the toxic tryhards to make the community even worse and even more unfriendly to new and casual players which makes you wonder how long can WoW last on tryhards and whales buying tokens for boosts (since that is what brings them a ton of profit based on their last quarterly report).

Honestly coming from WoW i am loving this community cuz it is friendly, helpful, nice and keeps pushing forward, I like doing extreme trials while on that expansion's content and I ve been using duty finder for it(JP dc), there have been some extreme trials like the later heavenswards ones which we had a number of wipes but we were improving each time so everyone kept pushing and we killed the boss just fine after people got used to the mechanics, there is was no drama, no insults, people just explained how X thing worked and because we were clearly getting closer there was no reason to vote to abandon which you would do if it was clear the group wouldnt beat it.

Plus it makes beating it after a few wipes even more fun, but then you have the tryhards who act if people arent at max performance at all time the world will collapse or if a single wipe in content that barely requires 50% performance is the worst thing that has happened to their life, I ve died in Thronmarch extreme once because the tank wasnt tanking the tankable ads and I didnt feel angry or bad, it was clearly a basic mistake that is easy to fix, it happens lul, we are gonna reset and kill it, BIG DEAL!

Thankfully SE has a good ToS so the type of toxicity you suffered is severely punishable.

[Starshower]

Thankfully SE has a good ToS so the type of toxicity you suffered is severely punishable.

Honestly I don't know what's wrong with me, I think my heart must be too good, because I didn't even report those people. It would've sucked for them if they lost their account. I don't want it to happen to me so I wouldn't push that on anyone.

[KeshLives]

Honestly I don't know what's wrong with me, I think my heart must be too good, because I didn't even report those people. It would've sucked for them if they lost their account. I don't want it to happen to me so I wouldn't push that on anyone.

Oh, I think you're fine. You're talking about three incidents, not the same people any of the times. I would have let it go myself.

Just the threat keeps people with ideas like that from doing much, if they think about it, here in FFXIV. Not worth it. Unfortunately, other games, no real mechanism to slow them exists.

[cdfgfxghf]

no it isn't lol as someone who has been playing since the beta that is not true NOBODY that i've met in the duty finder can handle any single bit on critcism with any ounce of maturity plus the average age has gone down and the whole free to play situation AND people from world of warcraft ARE NEVER MATURE they are incapable of this as every single wow player is immature and arrogant

[Ammokkx]

Hoo boy, just come back to this thread after few days and it turns into 'elitism vs casualism'. Well anyway...

rule 1 of GD:

Given enough time, every thread turns into elite vs. casual.