Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

[Edax]

Yeah, but he doesn't need to be like that. As the emperor, he could've ruled better and not have a rebellion in the first place. He is evil just to serve the plot, and if he is not evil, then he wouldn't exist as a character, just like Zenos serves the plot with his obsession with the WoL.

Even if the Emperor was not evil, he would still be the antagonist. Even non-evil Emperors get rebelled against, that's just how the world works. Not everyone wants to live under an autocracy, even if it isn't evil.

I think Zeno's motivations would work better for a side antagonist. A 'dragon' or 'rival' type etc more than the big bad. Like Grynwaht in Stormblood but not played for comic relief up until the last fight.

I kind of agree. Having a Boba Fett type character that doesn't care about the main conflict can add a little bit of flavor to the world. But if you make him the main villain it get's weird, it would feel like they were fighting for the sake of having an action scene.

[linayar]

Even if the Emperor was not evil, he would still be the antagonist. Even non-evil Emperors get rebelled against, that's just how the world works. Not everyone wants to live under an autocracy, even if it isn't evil.

He may have a rebellion, but that would be a different story as the rebels would be evil and Luke would be either evil or join the Empire instead.

(Now I wish Star Wars was like that where Anakin was always good in the prequel, Jedi truly corrupt in evil way, and Luke and maybe Leia too joining their father.)

[Bright-Flower]

You don't need to feel sorry for the Emperor either in Return of the Jedi, but he has motivations outside of Skywalker. He has a rebellion to crush and an Empire to run, he needs the Death Star to keep galaxy in line and it's not finished yet. The Emperor doesn't just exist to give Luke an obstacle, he's independent of the protagonist.

I think Zeno's motivations would work better for a side antagonist. A 'dragon' or 'rival' type etc more than the big bad. Like Grynwaht in Stormblood but not played for comic relief up until the last fight.

[Rosenstrauch]

At this point, I think the only thing about Zenos that could hold my interest is finding out what compelled him to return after he took his own life. It could be as simple as him realizing he could, and I'd be pretty disappointed if that were the case, but otherwise it's a mystery that could be used for further story development elsewhere.

Otherwise, he's just Discount Sephiroth—a loser who came back from the dead because he's obsessed with the guy who beat him that one time.

[Theodric]

I prefer nuance to outright villainy. Though if I'm going to have to stomach the latter, then I at least want charisma and entertainment. It's like Joffrey and Ramsay from Game of Thrones. Sure, they had very few - if any - redeeming qualities, but they were amusing to watch in their own right. Zenos' contribution to the plot outside of the base Stormblood MSQ has been less than satisfying. He's literally spent most of his time sitting around complaining about being bored as other, more interesting characters have been sidelined for his sake.

That he has inexplicably become the focus of both Garlemald's story and the Ascian story feels undeserved, as if he were simply put there to wrap up both as quickly as possible. It doesn't help that he's hardly threatening in any way to me. If he actually killed someone close to the Warrior of Light in an effort to enrage him and get a good fight? At least that'd make sense. Yet he hasn't and likely won't because the story has, of late, been very averse to lasting consequences and threat unless it's either a throwaway character or a sympathetic antagonist being killed off.

[Bright-Flower]

I prefer nuance to outright villainy. Though if I'm going to have to stomach the latter, then I at least want charisma and entertainment. It's like Joffrey and Ramsay from Game of Thrones. Sure, they had very few - if any - redeeming qualities, but they were amusing to watch in their own right. Zenos' contribution to the plot outside of the base Stormblood MSQ has been less than satisfying. He's literally spent most of his time sitting around complaining about being bored as other, more interesting characters have been sidelined for his sake.

That he has inexplicably become the focus of both Garlemald's story and the Ascian story feels undeserved, as if he were simply put there to wrap up both as quickly as possible. It doesn't help that he's hardly threatening in any way to me. If he actually killed someone close to the Warrior of Light in an effort to enrage him and get a good fight? At least that'd make sense. Yet he hasn't and likely won't because the story has, of late, been very averse to lasting consequences and threat unless it's either a throwaway character or a sympathetic antagonist being killed off.

Part of my issue with him in 4.0 is the lack of consequences for losing to him.

In the attack on RR one named character I can remember dies, but Fordola killed him not Zenos. The attack was even Fordola's idea from what I remember.

Then he beats the WOL and injures Yshtola. The former isn't important because he gets bored and has his forces withdraw and the rebels, while bruised, don't even have to fall back from their base afterwards. And Ysthola's injury is just a means of having the plot focus on other characters for a bit and not anything serious.

Then in Doma, we expose our presence in Othard to attack him and fail. But....not only does nothing bad happen other than bruising our egos, but it plays out in our favor. Because it leads to Grynwaht showing up in the Steppe jus tin time to help us rally the Xaela against the Empire. I don't think anyone really calls you and Yugiri out for doing it seriously.

I'm not saying he needs to kill half the Scions or something but when losing to him doesn't really matter, it's hard to fear it happening again in the future. And the actual boss fights against him in these two instances feel slow and tedious because of his inflated health bar. The fights aren't difficult, it doesn't feel like we're scrambling to hold our own against a superior foe. It's just an easy fight with an arbitrary 'okay you lose now' cutscene put in. So for me at least, it doesn't get the emotional impact of feeling outmatched they were probably aiming for and the fights may as well have just been cutscenes of him beating us if that's all they were going to amount to anyway.

[linayar]

He's literally spent most of his time sitting around complaining about being bored as other, more interesting characters have been sidelined for his sake.

Zenos is the one who's been sidelined, that's why he is bored and waiting. Even now, Fandaniel has taken more of the spotlight than Zenos.

[Lauront]

Part of my issue with him in 4.0 is the lack of consequences for losing to him.

In the attack on RR one named character I can remember dies, but Fordola killed him not Zenos. The attack was even Fordola's idea from what I remember.

Then he beats the WOL and injures Yshtola. The former isn't important because he gets bored and has his forces withdraw and the rebels, while bruised, don't even have to fall back from their base afterwards. And Ysthola's injury is just a means of having the plot focus on other characters for a bit and not anything serious.

Then in Doma, we expose our presence in Othard to attack him and fail. But....not only does nothing bad happen other than bruising our egos, but it plays out in our favor. Because it leads to Grynwaht showing up in the Steppe jus tin time to help us rally the Xaela against the Empire. I don't think anyone really calls you and Yugiri out for doing it seriously.

I'm not saying he needs to kill half the Scions or something but when losing to him doesn't really matter, it's hard to fear it happening again in the future. And the actual boss fights against him in these two instances feel slow and tedious because of his inflated health bar. The fights aren't difficult, it doesn't feel like we're scrambling to hold our own against a superior foe. It's just an easy fight with an arbitrary 'okay you lose now' cutscene put in. So for me at least, it doesn't get the emotional impact of feeling outmatched they were probably aiming for and the fights may as well have just been cutscenes of him beating us if that's all they were going to amount to anyway.

It'd be nice if any of the big villains/antagonists lately inflicted some consequences on those facing them. I suspect we might see some in 6.0, because both Zenos and Fandaniel are being put forth as irredeemable (therefore loss of sympathy is a non issue) and they have an excess supply of NPCs few people care about, so easy way to score some deaths and claim those are consequences, even if they're minor. Anyway, I agree with all that. I don't really care for him as a foe. Fandaniel could be interesting, because of his hidden story, but Zenos is lacking by comparison and, while there's some mysteries surrounding him, he personally does little to intrigue me.

[Rasler_Heios]

I don't like Zenos. He's boring and tunnel-visioned. Him being in EW is one of the very few disappointing things I have in that expansion. We'll just have to see what he has in store there, but if giving my opinion right now, he should have stayed dead.

[Lauront]

With any luck, he'll be the stepping stone to the actual end boss/threat.