Monk has too many Positionals

[gumas]

except laden fist oppo punch, i never care with MNK positional unless the enemy is small and didnt move much, if the enemy is big like mammoth/wyvern size and above, i will (mostly) ignore the positional (just utilize the ignore positional skill if it up)

but then again, outside boss fight, it mostly mobs fight so you just end up doing aoe skill most of the time (which require no positional as MNK)

the same goes with other melee class, it just me but in casual content like duty finder, standard run etc, i think 90% nobody will care about that, iam sure they do the same too depend on their mood.

[wereotter]

except laden fist oppo punch, i never care with MNK positional unless the enemy is small and didnt move much, if the enemy is big like mammoth/wyvern size and above, i will (mostly) ignore the positional (just utilize the ignore positional skill if it up)

but then again, outside boss fight, it mostly mobs fight so you just end up doing aoe skill most of the time (which require no positional as MNK)

the same goes with other melee class, it just me but in casual content like duty finder, standard run etc, i think 90% nobody will care about that, iam sure they do the same too depend on their mood.

Going to say, the bigger bosses are actually easier to hit positions correctly over smaller bosses. Larger, more visible hit rings make it easy to see if you're hitting from the right side. Also remember you don't have to move all the way to the compass east or west of the boss to get to the flank, and you don't have to be on compass south to be at rear (see the graphic in my earlier post) It really only takes making a couple steps to get to the right point on the boss, but with a smaller hit ring you're more likely to overshoot your movement and move from left flank to right flank than with a larger boss ring.

[IruruCece]

except laden fist oppo punch, i never care with MNK positional unless the enemy is small and didnt move much, if the enemy is big like mammoth/wyvern size and above, i will (mostly) ignore the positional (just utilize the ignore positional skill if it up)

but then again, outside boss fight, it mostly mobs fight so you just end up doing aoe skill most of the time (which require no positional as MNK)

the same goes with other melee class, it just me but in casual content like duty finder, standard run etc, i think 90% nobody will care about that, iam sure they do the same too depend on their mood.

Dude, wereotter posted a picture on the previous page showing you where rear and flank end on every mob in the game where positionals are necessary. If you're not hitting them, it's not because they are too hard.

[gumas]

Dude, wereotter posted a picture on the previous page showing you where rear and flank end on every mob in the game where positionals are necessary. If you're not hitting them, it's not because they are too hard.

i know, thats why for me positional is kinda useless outside boss fight, because outside boss we will always mobbing, and mobbing skill does not require positional at all.

as for boss fight, by "default" we will face either boss rear/flank side 90% of the time in which 3 positional skill requirement already met (either boot, true, demo or snap, twin, dragon) and since boss fight usually didnt move much, positioning is easy. even you dont do positional, since you will always facing rear/flank side of the enemy, you already doing 50% of your positional even without doing anything.

but at any rate (at least for me) in casual dungeon duty finder anything goes, i've seen dps doing worse by just doing standard 1-2-3 combo without any weaving or other skill and most of the time people just dont care ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

*i think "useless" is the wrong word (sorry english is not my main), what iam trying to say is, dont think too much about it, you dont need think so hard like "oh this skill i need to flank, oh next one i need to go rear etc" like i said, as MNK and as DPS by default you will always on the rear/flank of the enemy and that mean you already filled 50% of the positional skill quota, combine that with good rotation you already doing far better than 50% of the general players.

[IruruCece]

i know, thats why for me positional is kinda useless outside boss fight, because outside boss we will always mobbing, and mobbing skill does not require positional at all.

Which has been the case for a very long time, that doesn't mean positionals in general are bad or unnecessary. What it does say, however, is that SE's dungeon design overall isn't very compelling if they ultimately boil down to "Pull as much as you can survive, AoE the pack" while bosses are the only thing that require players to pay any real attention.

You're going to run into low-effort players in every game, that doesn't mean the devs should design their game around them. They are going to be low effort no matter how many concessions are made for them.

If nothing else, Monk positionals should not only stay in, they should also hit considerably harder than if they are missed, because we're seeing now what happens when SE de-incentivizes them to the extent they have, and players STILL aren't flocking to the job. Bad monks should perform considerably worse than those who put in any effort, anywhere from 20-30% worse. If someone thinks that's not fair, there's literally 9 (soon to be 10) other non-limited jobs they could play that don't have anywhere near as many positionals to land and will be closer to their gameplay preferences.

[gumas]

You're going to run into low-effort players in every game, that doesn't mean the devs should design their game around them. They are going to be low effort no matter how many concessions are made for them.

low effort? doing 50% (half) of the positional skill for me is not low effort at all, doing zero positional and only 1-2-3 combo without any skill weave in is what i called low effort. if 50% is still low to you, iam afraid your expectations is too high, i spend my time playing this game on casual "side" and never touch the top 10% endgame and i've seen people doing far far worse that just ignoring positional to the point i literally scream "what in the world are you doing" in my mind

[RdehlikaJenma]

I've been leveling everything to 60 recently, and from my experience, Monk is decidedly more tricky than other melee jobs, I'll admit, and I DID have trouble with the positionals combined with two three-hit combos (It's fiddly moving to hit the positional while trying to reach for the 6 key) But I tried moving one of the combos to a different keybind location and found it considerably easier, and far more enjoyable. I'll admit that most of that change was due to having a gaming mouse, but I don't think it's the positionals that are the crux of the problem. To me it was the six different buttons to maintain the baseline combo, combined with tanks not moving the bosses to enable safer utilization of the positional bonuses (aka keeping the boss in a position where I was being forced to either sacrifice the bonus, or take damage from an AoE on the ground

[wereotter]

I don't think it's the positionals that are the crux of the problem. To me it was the six different buttons to maintain the baseline combo, combined with tanks not moving the bosses to enable safer utilization of the positional bonuses (aka keeping the boss in a position where I was being forced to either sacrifice the bonus, or take damage from an AoE on the ground

The six buttons you'll get used to if you stick with the job (remember that dragoon has even more buttons for its base rotation)

But the other really is the bane of melee players in general, but especially monks. This is a symptom of bad tanks rather than a problem with the melee job. I don't think melees should be dumbed down because tanks aren't doing their job properly, though. We already can see how tanks are complaining about how agro generation got dumbed down because no one else wanted to use their tools last expansion, and I think it'll be the same reaction if they did this to melees. It definitely is better with more experienced tanks that know they shouldn't dance around the boss and need to pull more than their nose out of the fire. This is especially true, I found, for tanks that were previously melee mains.

[Ariel_Valmont]

People who don’t play MNK already killed greased lightning, how mind numbingly dumb do you all want to make this job.

Do the side set, then the back set, when you are comfortable with that, then you can start weaving in the right moves when needed.

You literally just need to stay on the bosses diagonal and side step one way or the other two move from flank/rear

[Kolsykol]

People who don’t play MNK already killed greased lightning, how mind numbingly dumb do you all want to make this job.

Do the side set, then the back set, when you are comfortable with that, then you can start weaving in the right moves when needed.

You literally just need to stay on the bosses diagonal and side step one way or the other two move from flank/rear

Tbh I kinda like the removal of GL and it being turned into a passive.
The problem is that the Job feels a bit empty because there was no other mechanic added.

At least before keeping GL up was a mechanic you were handling, now it's not and nothing took its place so Monk feels more unfinished in a way.
My hope is that we'll get a new and more fun mechanic to replace it that feels more rewarding.
Right now I kinda understand people who feel like turning GL into a passive oversimplified it etc, but I am fine with it IF we get new toys in Endwalkers.
If we don't well I'll probably have a more negative view of it, but I view it atm as setup for the next expansion ( hopefully ).