Blue mage shouldnt be "Limited"

[Raikai]

I Just wanted to point out an "impossibile" idea, but you know.. dreaming Is free..
What if BLU remain as It Is, but if you find all of its spells you unlock a new Quest that unlocks 3 new Jobs (with 3 differents crystals)
TLU (Tank blu) DLU (dps blu) and HLU (healer blu).
So.. you keep the limited job as It Is, with all its jimmicks, and you create 3 new REAL Jobs that use Blu skills as base (not all of them of course).
So for example pom cure Will become the standard gcd heal of Hlu, diamond back the invuln of Tlu, excetera.
The LITTLE problem Is that 3 new Jobs would Need to be designed almost from scratch.
Also something Need to be done about the lore and when new contents, spells and levels Will be added.. but you know.. i'll do It in my spare time if se allows me lol..

I think they'd rather spend the time/energy into making new jobs instead of designing 3 different flavors of BLU... :/

However, I think it can be done with what we have. 'take' on BLU turned regular DPS would be:


A new spell... let's call it "Blue Stance" for the lack of a better name.

1) It's sold via a new BLU NPC. To get it you must have a number of specific spells learned, the tools required to be a dpser. It cannot be used together with Mimicry;

2) When you use this spell, it replaces your Blue spellbook actionbar with an unique active set, filled with specific spells for the dpser role. You can't choose different spells while under this stance.

3) The stance also activates a job gauge. I always wondered that an Elemental Wheel inspired on Eureka's, that changed dynamically so you'd have to use specific spells, would be a nice touch.

4) This stance allows the player to queue as a DPS caster or get into current level instances with non-limited jobs.

There you go, just a single toggleable stance can put you into this 'very on-leashes dpser mode' like the others, while still keeping the alternative gameplay. It would use specific spells to the role, and since the spellbook in this case is not customizable, it can simply not contain certain 'broken' spells for regular content like White Wind.


But what about future updates with new expansions?

Come a new xpac, the vendor can have for example "Blue Stance II". A new totem acquired spell that fills your bars with slightly different spells introduced in the new expansion, this new Blue Stance II allows you to queue for the new xpac's content, that Blue Stance I wouldn't.

[Garten]

Ty_taurus and Raikai both made nice points. Blu could be both. A limited Jobs with its catch em all spells, arena and mini games. Then add some sort of mechanic that can be toogled to trasform It in a magical caster dps. While that mechanic Is Active It would be like a different job, but still using some of its spells acquired but with adjusted potencies and effects.
It would be a ff14 version of blu mage, like RDM Is a ff14 version of Red Mage.

[Raikai]

Ty_taurus and Raikai both made nice points. Blu could be both. A limited Jobs with its catch em all spells, arena and mini games. Then add some sort of mechanic that can be toogled to trasform It in a magical caster dps. While that mechanic Is Active It would be like a different job, but still using some of its spells acquired but with adjusted potencies and effects.
It would be a ff14 version of blu mage, like RDM Is a ff14 version of Red Mage.

Exactly... the whole idea is around the argument that BLU can't be a regular dpser due to the fact that its versatility would bring chaos and imbalance to the other jobs. Which kind of makes sense with the design they are trying to foster, when you look, everyone else's gameplay is pretty tight. Every RDM plays the same, and you're expected to play the same... There's no such thing as a BLM being an "Ice Mage".

Basically all we need is one spell that puts the job in a "stance mode" with a non-changeable list of spells (static spellbook setup), and this stance flags it as eligible for a certain range of content. With the terrible cheesy name I came up with:

Blue Stance I: Works for ARR-ShB
Blue Stance II: Works for EW
Blue Stance III: 7.0, et cetera

This idea also allows the developers to go for updated kit designs without relying on Traits.

The only compromise for this to work in a more organized way, however, would probably be an adjustment as in only letting "regular" Blue Mage builds go into content with either undersized parties or if you're working just with other Blue Mage groups, or solo. Else, you'd have to have one Blue Stance activated to flag yourself eligible.

And of course, the prospect of Full Blue groups tackling current content with custom builds can be an issue, so if you're in Endwalker, you would see the message "You need to be in Blue Stance II to undertake this duty", which would be lifted witht he following expansion... Which is basically like you experience the content now, of only being allowed to go one expansion prior. This is just a measure to also allow Blue Mage levels to be paired with the current content.

Edit: How about weapons? Althought it would be nice, since BLU starts at level 1, they don't really need to design weapons for old content, just make one of the canes scale up to a certain point like the Aetherythe earring does.

[Garten]

Just out of my head.. Azuro could point out 3 disciples that specialize in the 3 Roles, while he remains "a Jack of all trades"

[ty_taurus]

First and foremost, I agree that I think BLU should not be a limited job forever. I would like to see it increased to level 80 around 6.1 and hopefully catch it up to 90 at around 6.4-6.5 and while reaching that level, it can be unlocked as a playable job in all content.

However

It cannot exist the way it currently does as a contestable job with other caster DPS. The Bluemage Spellbook is filled with repetition, extremely niche tools, and outright ludicrous abilities that do not fit into the way content is designed from a fundamental level. I see players frequently saying 'Why does that matter? Who cares?' Imagine if Tekken decided to add a character like Link from The Legend of Zelda, but he played as he does in Smash Bros but in Tekken. It wouldn't work, and similarly, the BLU that we have does not fit in any capacity with the game's core design elements. That's why it's a glorified minigame right now--because it breaks the mold on traditional gameplay that FFXIV has. This means it will either be aggressively OP and kick other DPS out of the meta or it will be too useless that anyone who tries to play BLU in party content will be chastised and kicked out.

One of the benefits to FFXIV's design is that no job has ever truly been 'unviable.' Sure there have been patches where some party creators wanted specific jobs, but that was always a fairly mild form of elitism that didn't realistically reflect the way the majority of content was experienced. Fully unlocking BLU as it exists now would drastically break that approach. It MUST be adjusted to accommodate the way the game is actually played.

Fortunately, the hardest and most expensive part about game design is animation, and with a wide library of spells to select from, a huge chunk of the work is already complete. What needs to happen is the developers would need to select a range of spells to essentially rebuild to create a new caster out of the BLU we currently have. We could paint this in game as a quest to "Refine Blue Magic Spells" where you gather resources to unlock refined versions of existing spells, and once all of them are refined, you now can switch between limited mode and unlimited mode, where unlimited mode has a preset build like any other job and can now be played with other players. The effects of these refined spells would also be streamlined to be consistent with other Caster DPS, though BLU should still have it's own playstyle of course.

We could also have a limited selection of slots where you actually can very slightly customized your BLU caster. For example, you can opt for Angel's Whisper to bring added revive utility or some form of added DPS to bring it more in line with BLM's power. The added damage would obviously be preferred, but teams could easily opt to bring Angel's Whisper instead while progging and swap it out later once they become familiar with the fight. We could also, in the future, work toward building a true-to-its-name Healer BLU and Tank BLU, though I imagine not all 3 would be released simultaneously.

[MagiusNecros]

Stop trying to balance Blue Mage.

[Hanayumi]

The primary reason why Blu is limited is because it requires more than just leveling like normal jobs. Since you have to find and learn your skills, devs believe its at a massive disadvantage. So its also safe to say other "collect" jobs would be limited too, beastmaster, puppetmaster, etc. unless they remove the collection aspect altogether.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Having gotten 102 out of the 104 spells and having my dps set setup with the meta build. Cutting out all the OHKO spells, niche spells and niche utility, DPS Blue Mage is, for all intents and purposes, just Black Mage. Sonic Boom is Fire 4 with a 1 second cast time. Song of Torment is Thunder 3. The Rose of Destruction, and to an extent Matra Magic, is Xenoglossy.

After blowing all your cooldowns in the 15 second Moonflute opener Blue Mage basically turns into a Black Mage but without Umbral Fire and Umbral Ice juggling: Song of Torment (Thunder 3), after Nightbloom DoT expires, and Sonic Boom (Fire 4) spam with the occasional The Rose of Destruction/Matra Magic (Xenoglossy). You continue that until abilities come off cooldown weaving them in between Sonic Boom until Matra Magic, Nightbloom, J-Kick, all 4 charges of Surpanakha, and Triple Trident are all up again then you repeat the 15 second Moonflute opener.

DPS Blue Mage, now thanks to the spells added in ShB, has a concrete opener and concrete "rotation" after getting Matra Magic and could very well become a real job because of it. Just adjust the potencies of spells and cooldowns and disable OHKO, niche spells and niche utility in current content. I cannot say the same for Tank or Healer Blue Mage, but DPS Blue Mage, once you have Matra Magic, can very well work, with adjustments.

[Irenia]

How Ironic... the so-called limited job needs to be limited to play nice with the "real" jobs, perhaps those jobs should be called the true "limited" jobs.

Personally, I am more loose in what should be blocked in BLU - coming from the point of view of someone who believes Blue magic in the single player games have always been one foot in the rest of the game and one foot out. (FF7PS1's enemy skill is the closest thing to the idealized blue magic).

I would open up most content to BLU as is, if in a premade - including roulettes. Anything up to current normal mode stuff. Anything else needs to wait for two patches to pass before BLU can participate.

For levelling content you'd need to level a standardized job alongside BLU, but at cap, you'd be free to do story with Blu if you use Trusts or you have friends.

That's be a neat compromise for me, but I wonder how much people who prefer the standardized jobs would like or complain about nonstandard BLU being able to complete the easy content on content.

[Shurrikhan]

How Ironic... the so-called limited job needs to be limited to play nice with the "real" jobs, perhaps those jobs should be called the true "limited" jobs.

Ideally, yes. If you had one job that uniquely carried a massive arsenal from which to choose skills and interesting acquisition processes for horizontal progression leveraging a high ceiling for versatility, that would be your "unlimited" job (or the rest would be comparatively "limited").

Sadly, though, the current BLU doesn't really offer horizontal progression or tremendous versatility so much as just a series of mini-game mechanics that quickly devolve to painfully basic, highly linear skill progression that takes more grindy for an overall less nuanced or cohesive gameplay loop.

I think that's what a lot of this attempts to get to the heart of -- not to necessarily reduce BLU to a normal job, but simply to polish its skills so that its unique affordances are more than a pretense worsened by problematic tuning.

_______________________________

For my part, I probably would indeed have preferred if all jobs were a bit more "unlimited", such as if

• Cross-class skills were still a thing (but acquired as if through hidden unique exp paths, thereby fitting what benefits what you do to what you've done, each acquisition slightly dynamic with the acquiring job), and we'd actually have to pick and choose somewhat as to what skills to take and had the options for further horizontal progression by which to step outside our more typical roles, sub-roles, or playstyles;
• we actually had meaningful choices in primary stats, and impact from them on our playstyle (Monk, for instance, having supportive tools that could benefit notably from Mind or its elements-derived versatility being noticeably stimulated with more Intelligence, and able to wear Maiming, Scouting, or even Fending gear, etc., if willing to take the hit to relative attack power from lugging around heavier armor or the faintly less ideal influx in more quickly soft-capping Dexterity over Strength);
• we had unique flavor components noticeable even in the open-world, such as Dragoons being able to leap up cliffs, Conjurer's being able to accelerate airships in actual flight (a distant pipedream, I realize), etc., etc.;
• each had some unique means of skill acquisition, such as Bards actually learning various songs along their travels, or Monks practicing particular kata, and Dragoons taking their Dragon skills from defeating or befriending wyrmkin;
• we had toolkits that, even within a particular (especially if more hybrid-aimed) build, offered more diverse or branching possibilities for ways to play;
• etc., etc.

But alas...