Monks need a projectile!

[Morzy]

I am obviously not referring to situations where it's disadvantageous.
There are phases in this game where you're away from the boss for a longer time but is still in range to use your projectile.

I've played Monk since ARR, I am not new to Monk if I wanted to play something else then I would.
It's not about keeping up with dps either it's about your toolset and how it plays in practice.
Why can't you get behind something being there for the sake of being a filler when everyone else has it and it brings actual utility both in solo and group content?
That's what Anatman and what Chakras used to be and still are to some extent too, only without a lot of the utility projectiles bring and really underwhelming and boring.

I don't like the 'everyone else has it' argument.

Chakras are ok since they could be used as a single target or AOE. It's probably the best thing we've had since 50 tbh..
I didn't even play Monk during SB because to me SE were running it into the ground..

Honestly Monk at level 50 was perfect. Our level 60 action is basically Steel Peak, level 70 action helps Chakras which is ok I guess, and our level 80 action is again underwhelming.

There was a time just after HW where Monk was semi-ok, Dragon Kick was kind of useful for at the end of a fight (unless you don't time it PERFECTLY.. and end up doing a few form actions lol..)
and we were satiated with our TP issues by a Chakra using TP ability.

Monk has been a MESS for so long, and I'll be a monkey's uncle if the next thing they do is give us a weak ranged ability that is only useful in a very specific situation.

[Morzy]

Granted, most people I see don't even use their projectile they just stand there doing nothing not even using their channels etc.

You say it 'brings utility' yet you also state here that such fillers like a itty bitty ranged attack are often unused by
players. So does such an ability bring utility if people also don't use it?

Rockbreaker isn't a kick?
It's also purely an AoE ability.

It's not a kick, but the animation is literally stomping on the ground so you use legs nonetheless. It is similar to Howling Fist in that you basically hit the ground hard enough to damage things nearby.

Why can't you get behind something being there for the sake of being a filler when everyone else has it and it brings actual utility both in solo and group content?

Personally I'm a fan of psychology myself so I can't help but think of the way the job itself behaves.
I think Monk is designed for the player to be starved of action when they are not close enough to attack their target. If you could
attack from a distance it might take away from your motivation to get closer.. And the thing is there's not much reason to NOT get closer with
Shoulder Tackle because it has a fair range of 20 yalms UNLESS there's some AOE/mechanic that prevents you from getting closer.

That being said, you'd like an ability that is only relevant when either your two charges of Shoulder Tackle are used up, don't have
empty medication charges to juice up, and/or are unable to access the boss due to some AOE/mechanic. Personally
I can't get behind this, and that might just be due to my own experience and feel for the job over the many years.

I almost forgot about Touch of Death, but imo even the idea and meaning of that action enforces the idea that it's a deadly character to be near.

[Morzy]

Monks also aren't known for hitting hard, we're known for hitting fast.
Projectiles are also an iconic move in fighting games as well as Anime, I fail to see why it'd be out of play for Monk.

Edit: And yes Dragoons have Spears/ Halberds, but they don't carry a gigantic bag of them on their backs.
I dunno why you're trying to argue that as a point.

Monk already does have a projectile too in Enlightenment and technically Elixir Field just not in the way I am talking about so it's already there do you think it's out of place too?

But you don't want an iconic powerful ranged move. You want a itty bitty attack that can be used for a very specific time. I
doubt that such an attack would progress our forms so it would indeed be very standalone

Yes, Monk does hit fast, but Greased Lightning also increased your damage output, too, and it might just be me but it's always felt like a hard hitting job..

Dragon Kick (OG DK)(-10% Blunt resistance) , Twin Snakes (10% damage increase), Greased Lightning III (30% increase in Damage)
I might be remembering wrong, but that's 50% damage increase once the Monk was winded up.

[ssunny2008]

I'll acknowledge that most of these cases where a projectile ends up being really beneficial are when the tank is pulling weird shenanigans but the difference is still that others have something for that.
Everything isn't perfect all the time, there's a lot of problems that are essentially player created because people don't play perfectly all the time.
My overall point is just that it's a utility tool that EVERY melee in the entire game tanks included has except Monk and that it'd also add some flavor and solo utility.
I am not saying that it's a super important thing that is going to make a really noticable difference in your damage, it's more about fun and a bit of extra rather than it being a super ultra necessary thing.

I understand your point, but i still can´t see a range attack on MNK, just for the fact that it doesn´t fit the class in my eyes. I don´t want Son Goku here y know? ^^

And yes, mistakes can and will happen. But those are mistakes and in the case of other classes, those range attacks will interrupt your rotation. Tanks don´t even have a hard life anymore, they´re dumb to play and i main tank on my main char so... If they do it mistake once, it should be forgiven. But if they miss to position a boss properly, then it´s a bad tank or just trolls the group on purpose. The solution is, that he needs to improve or deserves a kick. It´s the sad truth. There is more than enough time between any mechanics and in the most cases, the boss will port anyway.

That said, i can´t even see any real use for a range ability unless you want to pick add per add out of nowhere. But that is not really needed anywhere in FF14. In the current situation, you can stack chakra anyway.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I understand your point, but i still can´t see a range attack on MNK, just for the fact that it doesn´t fit the class in my eyes. I don´t want Son Goku here y know? ^^

You may not want Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z and onward is pretty extreme), but he is probably closer to where the Monk needs to be in Final Fantasy than Karate Kid. Final Fantasy VI's Sabin/Mash is where the Monk should be and he had several of them.

That said, i can´t even see any real use for a range ability unless you want to pick add per add out of nowhere. But that is not really needed anywhere in FF14.

Of the top of my head:

• PotD and HoH - single target ranged attacks are very good for pulling apart packs
• Titania EX - Growth and Brambles - the dps get separated from the tanks, healers and boss by a wall of thorns for close to 15 seconds
• E3S - Temporary Currents on Split platforms - Every set has near dodge and one far dodge
• Bozja - Several of the CEs have extended AoE periods where the boss is targetable but out of melee range but within "ranged" range.
• Anamnesis Anyder - Final Boss Add spawns - Monks (and other melees) always seem to have trouble with stopping her adds from spawning as they refuse to stand on top of the spawn points

There are likely a lot more places were a viable gcd ranged attack would be useful.

In the current situation, you can stack chakra anyway.

Only to a certain point. It only takes between 1s and 5s to cap Chakra. If a mechanic forces you away longer there is no really much else to do that is engaging..

[ssunny2008]

You may not want Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z and onward is pretty extreme), but he is probably closer to where the Monk needs to be in Final Fantasy than Karate Kid. Final Fantasy VI's Sabin/Mash is where the Monk should be and he had several of them.

You can´t compare a MMORPG with defined classes to a singleplayer game where you say the characters use X, use Y. Everyone his opinion, for me it doesn´t fit MNK as a melee class in any way, especially with the given tools, which fits the class perfect and give MNK uniqueness in some way.

Of the top of my head:

• PotD and HoH - single target ranged attacks are very good for pulling apart packs
• Titania EX - Growth and Brambles - the dps get separated from the tanks, healers and boss by a wall of thorns for close to 15 seconds
• E3S - Temporary Currents on Split platforms - Every set has near dodge and one far dodge
• Bozja - Several of the CEs have extended AoE periods where the boss is targetable but out of melee range but within "ranged" range.
• Anamnesis Anyder - Final Boss Add spawns - Monks (and other melees) always seem to have trouble with stopping her adds from spawning as they refuse to stand on top of the spawn points

a) Yes it´s useful, but not needed. In 99,9% of all cases you´re in a group and some with a range attack anyway.
b) You can hold uptime there. Use backdash / SSS to move in your direction, turn around halfway and dash to the boss. The thorns won´t do anything and tethers will break. It works 100% unless the heal / tanks sleeps and stucks mid. I don´t even now if a range attack would be in range since i played it that way every time with MNK / SAM.
c) Another thing of timing. The castbar takes ages, find your timing, use SSS and dash in again.
d) I think i´ve played them all and it´s possible to work around them. Behemoth might be somehow bad with the safespots, but again i would call it "timing". I do even got invites to the solostuff without a buff since i started to do them with MNK and not as a tank or heal.
e) A thing of timing SSS (maybe with dash) again.

So yes, the only content where it´s somehow really useful is PoD and HoH. But again, it´s not really needed normally. You could even use Entlightenment for those, since chakra is easy to gain out of combat. That i´ve used the word "timing" so often is, because that´s exactly one of the biggest point about melees. A well timed SSS is a super strong tool on MNK. Other melees have other decsions to take in such cases.
And tbh... Dungeons, Bodzja, Fates or whatever... it doesn´t really matters what you do there, just survive somehow or wait for a rezz. Since the new Relic is just again pretty much the same pointless grind like the ones before, i play it completely brain afk, even die here and there because Netflix is more exciting.

[VentVanitas]

You can´t compare a MMORPG with defined classes to a singleplayer game where you say the characters use X, use Y. Everyone his opinion, for me it doesn´t fit MNK as a melee class in any way, especially with the given tools, which fits the class perfect and give MNK uniqueness in some way.

Why not? Other jobs have taken directly from their main series counterparts, with MNK being one of the few jobs in the game bearing no resemblance to how it is in traditional FF games. I'd hardly say that it's defined too since SE wasted 6 years giving MNK absolutely nothing to play with in terms of visual identity. It looks exactly the same as it was in ARR, and you can't say the same for the other DPS. It is completely valid to like the visuals of MNK as it currently is, but job fantasy is important and right now it basically has none. Insisting that it stick to only CQC/martial arts makes it more Pugilist than Monk.

Yes, I am aware that at the end of the day, what matters is how well the job plays and no amount of Square Enix brand particle effects and pretty lights can make a job good just on their own. (They already tried that with Machinist and failed) But it also needs to visually evolve alongside new changes to the kit otherwise you get no feeling of progression at all. MNK never had a "wow factor" to draw people in, it was only able to maintain a player-base that barely outperforms BLU at all because of diehard mains that will stick with the job no matter the change.

Tangent over. The topic of MNK's visual identity or lack thereof should probably be its own thread.

[ssunny2008]

Why not? Other jobs have taken directly from their main series counterparts, with MNK being one of the few jobs in the game bearing no resemblance to how it is in traditional FF games. I'd hardly say that it's defined too since SE wasted 6 years giving MNK absolutely nothing to play with in terms of visual identity. It looks exactly the same as it was in ARR, and you can't say the same for the other DPS. It is completely valid to like the visuals of MNK as it currently is, but job fantasy is important and right now it basically has none. Insisting that it stick to only CQC/martial arts makes it more Pugilist than Monk.

This is a new game and even the whole FF series had evolved over the years in kind of gameplay. Of course they could copy & paste everything, but it doesn´t mean that it fits the gameplay of a MMORPG. The subclasses are already "too close" to each other and play pretty much the same. Uniqueness is something what the games lacks completely especially since ShB. Having stuff like "no range", "ninjutsus" or "half range/half melee" is some kind it and let the classes play somehow different compared to the others.
And yes, another topic, but i couldn´t care less about a "visual identity", when the skills i use are way more important and should get changed to "dumb down" the class once again. I totally understand the wish for a range attack, but as i said... SSS is a great tool and fits the class 1000 times more. It´s a clear NO from my side just for the case to pull an add out of nowhere.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Anatman now charges up a ranged chi blast that gets stronger to a maximum the longer the downtime is.

[dezzmont]

If a 'weak' ki blast is unthematic, and the issue is your supposed to Meditate when you can't close but that causes issues with niche content pulls or scenarios where your forced to stay at range for longer than you can meditate, why not just make Forbidden Chakra ranged with a unique animation for if you use it outside of melee? Solves both problems, no new buttons, thematic as heck to charge up a Ki attack while still making monk unique in not having a 'plink' like other melee.