Monks need a projectile!

[ssunny2008]

I'll acknowledge that most of these cases where a projectile ends up being really beneficial are when the tank is pulling weird shenanigans but the difference is still that others have something for that.
Everything isn't perfect all the time, there's a lot of problems that are essentially player created because people don't play perfectly all the time.
My overall point is just that it's a utility tool that EVERY melee in the entire game tanks included has except Monk and that it'd also add some flavor and solo utility.
I am not saying that it's a super important thing that is going to make a really noticable difference in your damage, it's more about fun and a bit of extra rather than it being a super ultra necessary thing.

I understand your point, but i still can´t see a range attack on MNK, just for the fact that it doesn´t fit the class in my eyes. I don´t want Son Goku here y know? ^^

And yes, mistakes can and will happen. But those are mistakes and in the case of other classes, those range attacks will interrupt your rotation. Tanks don´t even have a hard life anymore, they´re dumb to play and i main tank on my main char so... If they do it mistake once, it should be forgiven. But if they miss to position a boss properly, then it´s a bad tank or just trolls the group on purpose. The solution is, that he needs to improve or deserves a kick. It´s the sad truth. There is more than enough time between any mechanics and in the most cases, the boss will port anyway.

That said, i can´t even see any real use for a range ability unless you want to pick add per add out of nowhere. But that is not really needed anywhere in FF14. In the current situation, you can stack chakra anyway.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I understand your point, but i still can´t see a range attack on MNK, just for the fact that it doesn´t fit the class in my eyes. I don´t want Son Goku here y know? ^^

You may not want Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z and onward is pretty extreme), but he is probably closer to where the Monk needs to be in Final Fantasy than Karate Kid. Final Fantasy VI's Sabin/Mash is where the Monk should be and he had several of them.

That said, i can´t even see any real use for a range ability unless you want to pick add per add out of nowhere. But that is not really needed anywhere in FF14.

Of the top of my head:

• PotD and HoH - single target ranged attacks are very good for pulling apart packs
• Titania EX - Growth and Brambles - the dps get separated from the tanks, healers and boss by a wall of thorns for close to 15 seconds
• E3S - Temporary Currents on Split platforms - Every set has near dodge and one far dodge
• Bozja - Several of the CEs have extended AoE periods where the boss is targetable but out of melee range but within "ranged" range.
• Anamnesis Anyder - Final Boss Add spawns - Monks (and other melees) always seem to have trouble with stopping her adds from spawning as they refuse to stand on top of the spawn points

There are likely a lot more places were a viable gcd ranged attack would be useful.

In the current situation, you can stack chakra anyway.

Only to a certain point. It only takes between 1s and 5s to cap Chakra. If a mechanic forces you away longer there is no really much else to do that is engaging..

[ssunny2008]

You may not want Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z and onward is pretty extreme), but he is probably closer to where the Monk needs to be in Final Fantasy than Karate Kid. Final Fantasy VI's Sabin/Mash is where the Monk should be and he had several of them.

You can´t compare a MMORPG with defined classes to a singleplayer game where you say the characters use X, use Y. Everyone his opinion, for me it doesn´t fit MNK as a melee class in any way, especially with the given tools, which fits the class perfect and give MNK uniqueness in some way.

Of the top of my head:

• PotD and HoH - single target ranged attacks are very good for pulling apart packs
• Titania EX - Growth and Brambles - the dps get separated from the tanks, healers and boss by a wall of thorns for close to 15 seconds
• E3S - Temporary Currents on Split platforms - Every set has near dodge and one far dodge
• Bozja - Several of the CEs have extended AoE periods where the boss is targetable but out of melee range but within "ranged" range.
• Anamnesis Anyder - Final Boss Add spawns - Monks (and other melees) always seem to have trouble with stopping her adds from spawning as they refuse to stand on top of the spawn points

a) Yes it´s useful, but not needed. In 99,9% of all cases you´re in a group and some with a range attack anyway.
b) You can hold uptime there. Use backdash / SSS to move in your direction, turn around halfway and dash to the boss. The thorns won´t do anything and tethers will break. It works 100% unless the heal / tanks sleeps and stucks mid. I don´t even now if a range attack would be in range since i played it that way every time with MNK / SAM.
c) Another thing of timing. The castbar takes ages, find your timing, use SSS and dash in again.
d) I think i´ve played them all and it´s possible to work around them. Behemoth might be somehow bad with the safespots, but again i would call it "timing". I do even got invites to the solostuff without a buff since i started to do them with MNK and not as a tank or heal.
e) A thing of timing SSS (maybe with dash) again.

So yes, the only content where it´s somehow really useful is PoD and HoH. But again, it´s not really needed normally. You could even use Entlightenment for those, since chakra is easy to gain out of combat. That i´ve used the word "timing" so often is, because that´s exactly one of the biggest point about melees. A well timed SSS is a super strong tool on MNK. Other melees have other decsions to take in such cases.
And tbh... Dungeons, Bodzja, Fates or whatever... it doesn´t really matters what you do there, just survive somehow or wait for a rezz. Since the new Relic is just again pretty much the same pointless grind like the ones before, i play it completely brain afk, even die here and there because Netflix is more exciting.

[VentVanitas]

You can´t compare a MMORPG with defined classes to a singleplayer game where you say the characters use X, use Y. Everyone his opinion, for me it doesn´t fit MNK as a melee class in any way, especially with the given tools, which fits the class perfect and give MNK uniqueness in some way.

Why not? Other jobs have taken directly from their main series counterparts, with MNK being one of the few jobs in the game bearing no resemblance to how it is in traditional FF games. I'd hardly say that it's defined too since SE wasted 6 years giving MNK absolutely nothing to play with in terms of visual identity. It looks exactly the same as it was in ARR, and you can't say the same for the other DPS. It is completely valid to like the visuals of MNK as it currently is, but job fantasy is important and right now it basically has none. Insisting that it stick to only CQC/martial arts makes it more Pugilist than Monk.

Yes, I am aware that at the end of the day, what matters is how well the job plays and no amount of Square Enix brand particle effects and pretty lights can make a job good just on their own. (They already tried that with Machinist and failed) But it also needs to visually evolve alongside new changes to the kit otherwise you get no feeling of progression at all. MNK never had a "wow factor" to draw people in, it was only able to maintain a player-base that barely outperforms BLU at all because of diehard mains that will stick with the job no matter the change.

Tangent over. The topic of MNK's visual identity or lack thereof should probably be its own thread.

[ssunny2008]

Why not? Other jobs have taken directly from their main series counterparts, with MNK being one of the few jobs in the game bearing no resemblance to how it is in traditional FF games. I'd hardly say that it's defined too since SE wasted 6 years giving MNK absolutely nothing to play with in terms of visual identity. It looks exactly the same as it was in ARR, and you can't say the same for the other DPS. It is completely valid to like the visuals of MNK as it currently is, but job fantasy is important and right now it basically has none. Insisting that it stick to only CQC/martial arts makes it more Pugilist than Monk.

This is a new game and even the whole FF series had evolved over the years in kind of gameplay. Of course they could copy & paste everything, but it doesn´t mean that it fits the gameplay of a MMORPG. The subclasses are already "too close" to each other and play pretty much the same. Uniqueness is something what the games lacks completely especially since ShB. Having stuff like "no range", "ninjutsus" or "half range/half melee" is some kind it and let the classes play somehow different compared to the others.
And yes, another topic, but i couldn´t care less about a "visual identity", when the skills i use are way more important and should get changed to "dumb down" the class once again. I totally understand the wish for a range attack, but as i said... SSS is a great tool and fits the class 1000 times more. It´s a clear NO from my side just for the case to pull an add out of nowhere.

[Kolsykol]

This is a new game and even the whole FF series had evolved over the years in kind of gameplay. Of course they could copy & paste everything, but it doesn´t mean that it fits the gameplay of a MMORPG. The subclasses are already "too close" to each other and play pretty much the same. Uniqueness is something what the games lacks completely especially since ShB. Having stuff like "no range", "ninjutsus" or "half range/half melee" is some kind it and let the classes play somehow different compared to the others.
And yes, another topic, but i couldn´t care less about a "visual identity", when the skills i use are way more important and should get changed to "dumb down" the class once again. I totally understand the wish for a range attack, but as i said... SSS is a great tool and fits the class 1000 times more. It´s a clear NO from my side just for the case to pull an add out of nowhere.

But it isn't really different, because everyone else except MNK has it.

I think that the difference here I guess is that I define what makes Jobs unique and their identity a lot more based on what they have, not what they don't have.
What makes NIN unique is that they have Ninjutsus, what makes MNK unique is that they're the fastest and has the most positionals etc.
I don't think that anyone really would say that the identity of MNK is to not have a ranged attack.

If we're going to make this argument that MNK not having a projectile makes it unique then why doesn't that same argument apply to other things then too like having a gap closer?
Should the new melee Job for Endwalker for example not have one because not having one would make it '' more unique ''?
I fundamentally disagree with that approach and think it's a really limiting approach.
I think it just compromises it rather arbitrarily.

And the only way I'd really buy this argument against MNK getting a projectile is if having projectile attacks was an actual core part of another melees identity and the other melees didn't have one either.
But it's not.
So MNK getting one doesn't interfer with the identity of the other Jobs and it doesn't somehow diminish MNK's identity really.
I mean this same argument could be used too to argue against positionals for other Jobs too, why should others have it when it's more of a core part of MNK's identity?
It just seems really weird to draw such a hard line with this for a relatively minor thing.

Well, agree to disagree I guess.

You say it 'brings utility' yet you also state here that such fillers like a itty bitty ranged attack are often unused by
players. So does such an ability bring utility if people also don't use it?




It's not a kick, but the animation is literally stomping on the ground so you use legs nonetheless. It is similar to Howling Fist in that you basically hit the ground hard enough to damage things nearby.


Personally I'm a fan of psychology myself so I can't help but think of the way the job itself behaves.
I think Monk is designed for the player to be starved of action when they are not close enough to attack their target. If you could
attack from a distance it might take away from your motivation to get closer.. And the thing is there's not much reason to NOT get closer with
Shoulder Tackle because it has a fair range of 20 yalms UNLESS there's some AOE/mechanic that prevents you from getting closer.

That being said, you'd like an ability that is only relevant when either your two charges of Shoulder Tackle are used up, don't have
empty medication charges to juice up, and/or are unable to access the boss due to some AOE/mechanic. Personally
I can't get behind this, and that might just be due to my own experience and feel for the job over the many years.

I almost forgot about Touch of Death, but imo even the idea and meaning of that action enforces the idea that it's a deadly character to be near.

A lot of people also don't use Second Wind, Bloodbath, Leg Sweep or the NIN shield for example.
That doesn't mean that it isn't useful utility.

The same way that if I am playing NIN, don't have Mudra's off CD and have finished a combo and I have to move away from the boss then throwing daggers are useful utility.
Other people not bothering or not thinking about that doesn't change that.
A lot of people don't even use the NIN teleport but it's incredibly useful and allows you to stay in combat for quite a bit longer if you use it correctly.

In regards to the whole motivation to get closer thing, you're playing a melee so that's your motivation.
And it doesn't seem to affect other melee players, you seem to be missing the point about why I think that a projectile could be situationally useful.
It's not an argument about it being too difficult or whatever to close the gap what you're saying is in direct conflict with what I am talking about and the exact opposite situation.

Edit: Or Mantra, I can't begin to count the amount of MNK players who don't use Mantra.
It's still useful utility.

[ssunny2008]

Well, agree to disagree I guess.

Yeah i think so.
MNK is the only class without any real range attack and it might be no part of MNK´s identity, but it´s definately a unique design choice compared to the others. MNK has SSS, chakra or FS instead of any range options and i think it fits the class very well together with all the positional requirements. I really don´t want to see range attacks or copy & paste job gauges or whatever on MNK. I want every class to be unique instead of having nearly the same tools or even job defined tools. Nothing would change my mind here. I get the wish about it, but even away from my "unique" opinion, i won´t say it´s needed in any way. We got other tools to work with.

A lot of people also don't use Second Wind, Bloodbath, Leg Sweep or the NIN shield for example.
That doesn't mean that it isn't useful utility.
Edit: Or Mantra, I can't begin to count the amount of MNK players who don't use Mantra.
It's still useful utility.

Yes they seem to be not useless, but in the end, they´re. Bloodbath for example is a broken skill when you´ve to deal with addpacks, but where do you really need it, when you normally have a tank? Same with the shields... Yes they can be lifesaver and i´m one of the guys, who use all given tools. But in the normal way, healers have to heal everyone and such solo defs doesn´t have that big impact. On the other hand you´ve such situations where 3 players (1 heal, 2 dd´s) might be down and it seems great on paper to survive the next aoe meanwhile the 2nd healer can rezz. But even here it´s going to be a wipe a bit later or at an enrage in 99% of all cases. Mantra is the worst raidbuff too. Healers have their rotations and those 10% seem to be a lot, but it normally ends in overheal too.
Overall, the content is just not made for those tools or they´re just way too bad on singletarget etc... Not even tanks are forced to use tons of defs in any content (maybe ultimate). This should change and overall all classes should get some more unique defs to work with, which definately are a real help for the healers or give us the possibility to tank more than 1 boss hit in a savage raid. I don´t even want to talk about the lack of mechanics around Esuna, interrupts or CC. I would just repeat myself again.

We haven´t much tools left after some years and SE still doesn´t even make use of the last of them. It´s really sad.

(Imo they were only useful for me on MNK, when i played several bodzja fates out of a group. I timed their use, survived somehow and even got multiple solo invites in the end.)