Monks need a projectile!

[Kolsykol]

Because the projectiles for at least SAM and DRG break their combo

I am obviously not referring to situations where it's disadvantageous.
There are phases in this game where you're away from the boss for a longer time but is still in range to use your projectile.

Hi,

Let's get one thing out of the way: Monk is a mess.
I understand your frustration. I have seen Monk change through expansions since
2.3. In my humble opinion, though, I don't think a ranged attack really makes sense for the job.

Dragoon: It's a dragon. It has a spear. Spears are sometimes thrown
Ninja: This class has knives. Nuff said.
Samurai: Ranged Samurai attacks are common.. You see it all the time in Japanese anime.
... But Monk? I suppose 'Chi Blast' makes sense, but we kind of got something like that with the
Chakra AOE attack, and I'm REALLY glad that we got another AOE ability to begin with.

But even if we had a 'spammable' 'Chi Blast'.. I think it would feel wrong lol
because most of our attacks would be hard hitting and something we could
spam would feel like it's simply a filler for the sake of a filler which I can't get behind.
I mean our weakest standalone attack must be Shoulder Tackle which isn't
weak at all because it aims to get us within reach of things to punch. The entire job
makes you feel like you're a deadly weapon when you get within reach of things.

Even though we lack a ranged attack.. I don't have an issue keeping up with DPS. If
you really feel like the job is incomplete, then... Maybe you'd be better suited for DRG or SAM.

I've played Monk since ARR, I am not new to Monk if I wanted to play something else then I would.
It's not about keeping up with dps either it's about your toolset and how it plays in practice.
Why can't you get behind something being there for the sake of being a filler when everyone else has it and it brings actual utility both in solo and group content?
That's what Anatman and what Chakras used to be and still are to some extent too, only without a lot of the utility projectiles bring and really underwhelming and boring.

Monks also aren't known for hitting hard, we're known for hitting fast.
Projectiles are also an iconic move in fighting games as well as Anime, I fail to see why it'd be out of play for Monk.

Edit: And yes Dragoons have Spears/ Halberds, but they don't carry a gigantic bag of them on their backs.
I dunno why you're trying to argue that as a point.

Monk already does have a projectile too in Enlightenment and technically Elixir Field just not in the way I am talking about so it's already there do you think it's out of place too?

I do miss Howling Fist lol... But Rockbreaker is basically the kicking version of that so xD

Rockbreaker isn't a kick?
It's also purely an AoE ability.

[Nothv13]

I am obviously not referring to situations where it's disadvantageous.
There are phases in this game where you're away from the boss for a longer time but is still in range to use your projectile.

Yes, and most of them don't last long enough to be worth breaking your combo, thus you don't use your ranged. For example, the DRG's ranged ability is so bad guides literally tell you to take it off the bar.

[ssunny2008]

There are phases in this game where you're away from the boss for a longer time but is still in range to use your projectile.

Could you give some examples?

I personally can´t remember any mechanic of recent fights where some of the following steps is not possible and enough to "sit out" the disengage without any DPS loss.

- SSS
- SSS + dash
- SSS + chakra (especially if SSS is bad timed)
- GCD move out, move in, GCD
- GCD (best bootshine, move out, Formshift, move in again with DK to buff your BS again and to unleash it faster
- Chakra spam only for 0,5s gaps

Monk has probably the most different ways to deal with disengages, meanwhile all other melees has backjumps / teleport or their range attacks.

It might be another thing, if you play really old content sync without some of the new tools, but even there i can´t remember mechanics which force you sooo long away from the boss, that you would lose tons of damage.

[Kolsykol]

Yes, and most of them don't last long enough to be worth breaking your combo, thus you don't use your ranged. For example, the DRG's ranged ability is so bad guides literally tell you to take it off the bar.

I think I've been pretty clear that I am talking about niche situations ( AND SOLO CONTENT ), it's the same with Tanks pulling bosses far away from you when you need to stand somewhere else for a phase revolving around stacks for example.
A lot of these situations are just out of your hands and avoidable but happen anyway because people don't normally communicate with mics and min-max.
Sure in a min-max groups and groups with more communication it's going to be even more limited, but if you're pugging in particular you can't always rely on the tank positioning the boss perfectly for max uptime.
For example in Delubrum Reginae recently I had a tank that dragged the Phantom boss around way too early and all of the melee were being dragged behind missing out on Trick Attack window uptime even tho the movement phase was far away.

You also need to remember that you're not always in the middle of a combo either, a lot of the time when you're moving away from the boss you've just finished a combo.
So what's the point then in not attacking?

Could you give some examples?

I personally can´t remember any mechanic of recent fights where some of the following steps is not possible and enough to "sit out" the disengage without any DPS loss.

- SSS
- SSS + dash
- SSS + chakra (especially if SSS is bad timed)
- GCD move out, move in, GCD
- GCD (best bootshine, move out, Formshift, move in again with DK to buff your BS again and to unleash it faster
- Chakra spam only for 0,5s gaps

Monk has probably the most different ways to deal with disengages, meanwhile all other melees has backjumps / teleport or their range attacks.

It might be another thing, if you play really old content sync without some of the new tools, but even there i can´t remember mechanics which force you sooo long away from the boss, that you would lose tons of damage.

I'll acknowledge that most of these cases where a projectile ends up being really beneficial are when the tank is pulling weird shenanigans but the difference is still that others have something for that.
Everything isn't perfect all the time, there's a lot of problems that are essentially player created because people don't play perfectly all the time.
My overall point is just that it's a utility tool that EVERY melee in the entire game tanks included has except Monk and that it'd also add some flavor and solo utility.
I am not saying that it's a super important thing that is going to make a really noticable difference in your damage, it's more about fun and a bit of extra rather than it being a super ultra necessary thing.

[ssunny2008]

I'll acknowledge that most of these cases where a projectile ends up being really beneficial are when the tank is pulling weird shenanigans but the difference is still that others have something for that.
Everything isn't perfect all the time, there's a lot of problems that are essentially player created because people don't play perfectly all the time.
My overall point is just that it's a utility tool that EVERY melee in the entire game tanks included has except Monk and that it'd also add some flavor and solo utility.
I am not saying that it's a super important thing that is going to make a really noticable difference in your damage, it's more about fun and a bit of extra rather than it being a super ultra necessary thing.

I understand your point, but i still can´t see a range attack on MNK, just for the fact that it doesn´t fit the class in my eyes. I don´t want Son Goku here y know? ^^

And yes, mistakes can and will happen. But those are mistakes and in the case of other classes, those range attacks will interrupt your rotation. Tanks don´t even have a hard life anymore, they´re dumb to play and i main tank on my main char so... If they do it mistake once, it should be forgiven. But if they miss to position a boss properly, then it´s a bad tank or just trolls the group on purpose. The solution is, that he needs to improve or deserves a kick. It´s the sad truth. There is more than enough time between any mechanics and in the most cases, the boss will port anyway.

That said, i can´t even see any real use for a range ability unless you want to pick add per add out of nowhere. But that is not really needed anywhere in FF14. In the current situation, you can stack chakra anyway.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I understand your point, but i still can´t see a range attack on MNK, just for the fact that it doesn´t fit the class in my eyes. I don´t want Son Goku here y know? ^^

You may not want Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z and onward is pretty extreme), but he is probably closer to where the Monk needs to be in Final Fantasy than Karate Kid. Final Fantasy VI's Sabin/Mash is where the Monk should be and he had several of them.

That said, i can´t even see any real use for a range ability unless you want to pick add per add out of nowhere. But that is not really needed anywhere in FF14.

Of the top of my head:

• PotD and HoH - single target ranged attacks are very good for pulling apart packs
• Titania EX - Growth and Brambles - the dps get separated from the tanks, healers and boss by a wall of thorns for close to 15 seconds
• E3S - Temporary Currents on Split platforms - Every set has near dodge and one far dodge
• Bozja - Several of the CEs have extended AoE periods where the boss is targetable but out of melee range but within "ranged" range.
• Anamnesis Anyder - Final Boss Add spawns - Monks (and other melees) always seem to have trouble with stopping her adds from spawning as they refuse to stand on top of the spawn points

There are likely a lot more places were a viable gcd ranged attack would be useful.

In the current situation, you can stack chakra anyway.

Only to a certain point. It only takes between 1s and 5s to cap Chakra. If a mechanic forces you away longer there is no really much else to do that is engaging..

[ssunny2008]

You may not want Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z and onward is pretty extreme), but he is probably closer to where the Monk needs to be in Final Fantasy than Karate Kid. Final Fantasy VI's Sabin/Mash is where the Monk should be and he had several of them.

You can´t compare a MMORPG with defined classes to a singleplayer game where you say the characters use X, use Y. Everyone his opinion, for me it doesn´t fit MNK as a melee class in any way, especially with the given tools, which fits the class perfect and give MNK uniqueness in some way.

Of the top of my head:

• PotD and HoH - single target ranged attacks are very good for pulling apart packs
• Titania EX - Growth and Brambles - the dps get separated from the tanks, healers and boss by a wall of thorns for close to 15 seconds
• E3S - Temporary Currents on Split platforms - Every set has near dodge and one far dodge
• Bozja - Several of the CEs have extended AoE periods where the boss is targetable but out of melee range but within "ranged" range.
• Anamnesis Anyder - Final Boss Add spawns - Monks (and other melees) always seem to have trouble with stopping her adds from spawning as they refuse to stand on top of the spawn points

a) Yes it´s useful, but not needed. In 99,9% of all cases you´re in a group and some with a range attack anyway.
b) You can hold uptime there. Use backdash / SSS to move in your direction, turn around halfway and dash to the boss. The thorns won´t do anything and tethers will break. It works 100% unless the heal / tanks sleeps and stucks mid. I don´t even now if a range attack would be in range since i played it that way every time with MNK / SAM.
c) Another thing of timing. The castbar takes ages, find your timing, use SSS and dash in again.
d) I think i´ve played them all and it´s possible to work around them. Behemoth might be somehow bad with the safespots, but again i would call it "timing". I do even got invites to the solostuff without a buff since i started to do them with MNK and not as a tank or heal.
e) A thing of timing SSS (maybe with dash) again.

So yes, the only content where it´s somehow really useful is PoD and HoH. But again, it´s not really needed normally. You could even use Entlightenment for those, since chakra is easy to gain out of combat. That i´ve used the word "timing" so often is, because that´s exactly one of the biggest point about melees. A well timed SSS is a super strong tool on MNK. Other melees have other decsions to take in such cases.
And tbh... Dungeons, Bodzja, Fates or whatever... it doesn´t really matters what you do there, just survive somehow or wait for a rezz. Since the new Relic is just again pretty much the same pointless grind like the ones before, i play it completely brain afk, even die here and there because Netflix is more exciting.

[VentVanitas]

You can´t compare a MMORPG with defined classes to a singleplayer game where you say the characters use X, use Y. Everyone his opinion, for me it doesn´t fit MNK as a melee class in any way, especially with the given tools, which fits the class perfect and give MNK uniqueness in some way.

Why not? Other jobs have taken directly from their main series counterparts, with MNK being one of the few jobs in the game bearing no resemblance to how it is in traditional FF games. I'd hardly say that it's defined too since SE wasted 6 years giving MNK absolutely nothing to play with in terms of visual identity. It looks exactly the same as it was in ARR, and you can't say the same for the other DPS. It is completely valid to like the visuals of MNK as it currently is, but job fantasy is important and right now it basically has none. Insisting that it stick to only CQC/martial arts makes it more Pugilist than Monk.

Yes, I am aware that at the end of the day, what matters is how well the job plays and no amount of Square Enix brand particle effects and pretty lights can make a job good just on their own. (They already tried that with Machinist and failed) But it also needs to visually evolve alongside new changes to the kit otherwise you get no feeling of progression at all. MNK never had a "wow factor" to draw people in, it was only able to maintain a player-base that barely outperforms BLU at all because of diehard mains that will stick with the job no matter the change.

Tangent over. The topic of MNK's visual identity or lack thereof should probably be its own thread.

[Morzy]

I am obviously not referring to situations where it's disadvantageous.
There are phases in this game where you're away from the boss for a longer time but is still in range to use your projectile.

I've played Monk since ARR, I am not new to Monk if I wanted to play something else then I would.
It's not about keeping up with dps either it's about your toolset and how it plays in practice.
Why can't you get behind something being there for the sake of being a filler when everyone else has it and it brings actual utility both in solo and group content?
That's what Anatman and what Chakras used to be and still are to some extent too, only without a lot of the utility projectiles bring and really underwhelming and boring.

I don't like the 'everyone else has it' argument.

Chakras are ok since they could be used as a single target or AOE. It's probably the best thing we've had since 50 tbh..
I didn't even play Monk during SB because to me SE were running it into the ground..

Honestly Monk at level 50 was perfect. Our level 60 action is basically Steel Peak, level 70 action helps Chakras which is ok I guess, and our level 80 action is again underwhelming.

There was a time just after HW where Monk was semi-ok, Dragon Kick was kind of useful for at the end of a fight (unless you don't time it PERFECTLY.. and end up doing a few form actions lol..)
and we were satiated with our TP issues by a Chakra using TP ability.

Monk has been a MESS for so long, and I'll be a monkey's uncle if the next thing they do is give us a weak ranged ability that is only useful in a very specific situation.