Polite suggestion regarding drop rate for highly desired items

[Hiruke]

In many ways, Final Fantasy XIV is already a triumph over Final Fantasy XI. I can't tell you how happy I am that certain basic information isn't hidden in this game, how nice it is to just see a monster's level, whether or not it's aggressive, where monsters are on the mini-map, having NMs clearly marked on the mini-map, etc. One thing that was particularly exciting was how fast NMs respawn. I never cared for how long you had to wait for them in Final Fantasy XI. Waiting just isn't much fun. Challenge is, but waiting isn't.

What I'm perhaps most concerned about with Final Fantasy XIV is the kind of precedent the drop rate for encounters like Ifrit sets for the future of the game. Stories of folks fighting Ifrit 200+ times before getting the item they want is fairly common. I'd like to explain why I think this is of concern:

1) As stated previously, I believe challenge is what makes this game fun, not waiting. Similarly, I don't feel that low drop rates are particularly fun, either. Even though I spent something like 5 or so years doing endgame content in Final Fantasy XI, I never much bothered with things like Fafnir. Part of it was all the botters. I don't believe in using cheats or exploits, so the chances of pulling claim were fairly low. Even if we did get claim, were the chances of getting a Ridill good? Not at all. Some LSes probably camped Fafnir from the day it was introduced until they raised level cap high enough to where stuff like Ridills weren't even desired items. I might, maybe, have been more inclined to camp it if I knew after a while I might get everything for my LS that we wanted, but since I knew that would never happen, it wasn't really worth all the drama to wait our lives sitting there waiting, usually not fighting it, and not getting much in return if we did happen to kill it. Whether it's a low drop rate (and you have to admit, potentially taking 100-200 kills to get what you want is pretty low), or waiting around forever to maybe fight something, it's equally frustrating either way.

2) Attempting to force players to repeat the same content for a protracted period of time (specifically, very small pieces of content like this that only consist of a single battle) is likely to have a very negative effect on the general opinion of the game. Having to repeat something like Dynamis or Limbus several times to get what you want is quite a bit different from having to repeatedly fight Ifrit. If I'm faced with the prospect of fighting Ifrit even 100 times to get what I want, I'm going to feel less inclined to do it at all. It gets worse if I consider whether or not I want an item from several different primals. Say we eventually have 8 primals (or more). Does that mean I have to potentially run through 800-1600 primal fights because I get all the primal weapons I want?

3) "Luck" in general is also very frustrating to players. Folks are much more likely to buy into tangible, measurable progress. As in the case of Dynamis or Limbus, you're always getting currency and/or some kind of (generally useful, at least to someone) drops. In the case of Ifrit, if you don't get what you want, you either get dark matter or a copy of a weapon you already have (and probably don't want/need). It's a common joke about Final Fantasy XI, the folks who defeated Tiamat and only got a fire crystal. I would not like to see that kind of thing repeated in Final Fantasy XIV, but that's fairly analogous to only getting dark matter from Ifrit. Let's be honest: dark matter isn't much of a reward for what is supposed to be a challenging fight.

4) Folks get tired of static content. I always thought it was a blast to fight avatars in Final Fantasy XI, but that's because I didn't have to do it very often. I'd be super surprised if I fought any individual avatar more than 30 times over the course of the years I played Final Fantasy XI, much less the 200-300 some folks have fought Ifrit over the span of a few months. Part of why I quit Final Fantasy XI was that it was starting to feel like too much of a job. I don't mind working toward a goal, but the journey should feel like fun, not work. Having to do the same fight more than 10 times feels like work, much less 100. I understand that there won't be a lot of varied content in Final Fantasy XIV until 2.0 releases, but I'd prefer to do different things rather than repeat a single fight due to low drop rate.

5) To loop back around, I think that if you want an item to be difficult to obtain, you should increase the challenge, rather than decrease the drop rate. Whether it to a fire crystal or dark matter, defeating something that is supposed to be challenging and getting nothing in return is a big letdown. That kind of hollow victory is frustrating, not fun. I'd much rather wipe to Ifrit 100 times, then finally beat it and get exactly what I wanted, than to mow Ifrit down 100 times, most often getting nothing. The latter scenario proves that the encounter isn't about challenge, but about persistence. Fun inspires persistence, not work. Sure, there a lot of people who will fight Ifrit, 100, 200, or even 1,000 times to get the item they wanted, but none of them seem particularly happy that it takes so long to do so. Folks can only do that kind of thing so long before they burn out. If everything in the game takes 100-200 tries to get what you want, once there is a lot more content in the game, eventually people are going to stop caring (and then stop playing).

So, I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion is to drastically improve drop rate, and not just for Ifrit. Other primals have similar drop rates, and so do faction LQs (the ones that drop templar's, buccaneer's, and harlequin's items). As soon as I understand that the drop rate was poor for those items, despite having to do multiple faction LQs just for the opportunity to "maybe" get the items, I immediately lost interest. It just doesn't seem like a good system, to have to spend all those faction points, do multiple faction LQs, defeat the final one, and then get nothing for your trouble.

More specifically:

1) Faction LQs that are part of a series (like the aforementioned, where you have to unlock other faction LQs before you can finally fight some kind of NM in the final faction LQ for some rare item) should have a 100% chance of giving you the desired item.

2) Primal battles should also be one and done. Stuff like the totems should be 100% drop, and you should be able to trade in 1 totem in order to get your desired weapon. This way you have to fight the primal 7 times if you want all 7 weapons, which I think is more than enough.

Primal battles and faction LQs should spice up the game, accentuate it. These aren't "main content", and shouldn't be treated as such. In Final Fantasy XI, we did Dynamis/Limbus weekly (back when that was the thing). We didn't fight Ifrit weekly (or daily). It's not varied enough to repeat so frequently (unlike Dynamis and Limbus, where you had multiple zones you could fight through, and ultimate bosses you could take on at the end). Even Dynamis Lord would have gotten boring if you had to fight him 200 times in the span of 2 months.

I would ask that you please reconsider your position regarding drop rates. I understand if you want to make the currently limited content stretch as far as possible, but I don't feel low drop rates are the answer. A lot of folks burned out on Final Fantasy XIV at least partially because of how long it took to level up, especially crafting classes. I can't even to begin to tell you how thankful I am that leveling up crafting classes no longer feels like an impossibly long task. I would once again be unbelievably thankful if getting items from primal battles, etc. no longer felt like an impossibly long task.

I imagine you're worried folks will run out of things to do, but I feel they will be more appreciative and more willing to support the game if they feel like you care about them. Drastically increasing the drop rates would go a long way to proving that, and will cause us to worry a lot less about having to deal with incredibly low drop rates throughout the entire span of the game. Those of us who are here, definitely want to support the game. I myself was extremely disappointed in the state of the game at launch, and dozens of my friends left the game because of it. But I'm still here, because I believe that we're heading to somewhere amazing, that 2.0 will be just as fantastic as it seems. I'm given hope by all of the things that were done right to begin with, and everything that's been improved since then. I know a lot of things have to wait until 2.0, but drop rates isn't one of them. That's definitely something that can be addressed now.

Please consider my request.

[Chardrizard]

What do you expect from them? shit out 8 primals in a patch? stop comparing contents from a game that has been established for years.

While i dont like low droprate myself, but it is neeeded to stretch out the content and keep something exclusive so not everyone and their mom have them. We are lacking content and u can't just do one primals and be done. Again, they can't magically come up with contents in a fingerclicks.

Drastically increasing droprate would only make people play for a week goes away to another game.

As of right now, many people still have not done with darklight gears and we have new patch incoming, in a way it's nice right now that we have alot of people coming back to alot of contents, Ifrit and Moogle demands hasn't drop either. Plenty of events to do without spamming same thing every night.

[Nakiamiie]

In many ways, Final Fantasy XIV is already a triumph over Final Fantasy XI. I can't tell you how happy I am that certain basic information isn't hidden in this game, how nice it is to just see a monster's level, whether or not it's aggressive, where monsters are on the mini-map, having NMs clearly marked on the mini-map, etc. One thing that was particularly exciting was how fast NMs respawn. I never cared for how long you had to wait for them in Final Fantasy XI. Waiting just isn't much fun. Challenge is, but waiting isn't.

What I'm perhaps most concerned about with Final Fantasy XIV is the kind of precedent the drop rate for encounters like Ifrit sets for the future of the game. Stories of folks fighting Ifrit 200+ times before getting the item they want is fairly common. I'd like to explain why I think this is of concern:

1) As stated previously, I believe challenge is what makes this game fun, not waiting. Similarly, I don't feel that low drop rates are particularly fun, either. Even though I spent something like 5 or so years doing endgame content in Final Fantasy XI, I never much bothered with things like Fafnir. Part of it was all the botters. I don't believe in using cheats or exploits, so the chances of pulling claim were fairly low. Even if we did get claim, were the chances of getting a Ridill good? Not at all. Some LSes probably camped Fafnir from the day it was introduced until they raised level cap high enough to where stuff like Ridills weren't even desired items. I might, maybe, have been more inclined to camp it if I knew after a while I might get everything for my LS that we wanted, but since I knew that would never happen, it wasn't really worth all the drama to wait our lives sitting there waiting, usually not fighting it, and not getting much in return if we did happen to kill it. Whether it's a low drop rate (and you have to admit, potentially taking 100-200 kills to get what you want is pretty low), or waiting around forever to maybe fight something, it's equally frustrating either way.

2) Attempting to force players to repeat the same content for a protracted period of time (specifically, very small pieces of content like this that only consist of a single battle) is likely to have a very negative effect on the general opinion of the game. Having to repeat something like Dynamis or Limbus several times to get what you want is quite a bit different from having to repeatedly fight Ifrit. If I'm faced with the prospect of fighting Ifrit even 100 times to get what I want, I'm going to feel less inclined to do it at all. It gets worse if I consider whether or not I want an item from several different primals. Say we eventually have 8 primals (or more). Does that mean I have to potentially run through 800-1600 primal fights because I get all the primal weapons I want?

3) "Luck" in general is also very frustrating to players. Folks are much more likely to buy into tangible, measurable progress. As in the case of Dynamis or Limbus, you're always getting currency and/or some kind of (generally useful, at least to someone) drops. In the case of Ifrit, if you don't get what you want, you either get dark matter or a copy of a weapon you already have (and probably don't want/need). It's a common joke about Final Fantasy XI, the folks who defeated Tiamat and only got a fire crystal. I would not like to see that kind of thing repeated in Final Fantasy XIV, but that's fairly analogous to only getting dark matter from Ifrit. Let's be honest: dark matter isn't much of a reward for what is supposed to be a challenging fight.

4) Folks get tired of static content. I always thought it was a blast to fight avatars in Final Fantasy XI, but that's because I didn't have to do it very often. I'd be super surprised if I fought any individual avatar more than 30 times over the course of the years I played Final Fantasy XI, much less the 200-300 some folks have fought Ifrit over the span of a few months. Part of why I quit Final Fantasy XI was that it was starting to feel like too much of a job. I don't mind working toward a goal, but the journey should feel like fun, not work. Having to do the same fight more than 10 times feels like work, much less 100. I understand that there won't be a lot of varied content in Final Fantasy XIV until 2.0 releases, but I'd prefer to do different things rather than repeat a single fight due to low drop rate.

5) To loop back around, I think that if you want an item to be difficult to obtain, you should increase the challenge, rather than decrease the drop rate. Whether it to a fire crystal or dark matter, defeating something that is supposed to be challenging and getting nothing in return is a big letdown. That kind of hollow victory is frustrating, not fun. I'd much rather wipe to Ifrit 100 times, then finally beat it and get exactly what I wanted, than to mow Ifrit down 100 times, most often getting nothing. The latter scenario proves that the encounter isn't about challenge, but about persistence. Fun inspires persistence, not work. Sure, there a lot of people who will fight Ifrit, 100, 200, or even 1,000 times to get the item they wanted, but none of them seem particularly happy that it takes so long to do so. Folks can only do that kind of thing so long before they burn out. If everything in the game takes 100-200 tries to get what you want, once there is a lot more content in the game, eventually people are going to stop caring (and then stop playing).

So, I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion is to drastically improve drop rate, and not just for Ifrit. Other primals have similar drop rates, and so do faction LQs (the ones that drop templar's, buccaneer's, and harlequin's items). As soon as I understand that the drop rate was poor for those items, despite having to do multiple faction LQs just for the opportunity to "maybe" get the items, I immediately lost interest. It just doesn't seem like a good system, to have to spend all those faction points, do multiple faction LQs, defeat the final one, and then get nothing for your trouble.

More specifically:

1) Faction LQs that are part of a series (like the aforementioned, where you have to unlock other faction LQs before you can finally fight some kind of NM in the final faction LQ for some rare item) should have a 100% chance of giving you the desired item.

2) Primal battles should also be one and done. Stuff like the totems should be 100% drop, and you should be able to trade in 1 totem in order to get your desired weapon. This way you have to fight the primal 7 times if you want all 7 weapons, which I think is more than enough.

Primal battles and faction LQs should spice up the game, accentuate it. These aren't "main content", and shouldn't be treated as such. In Final Fantasy XI, we did Dynamis/Limbus weekly (back when that was the thing). We didn't fight Ifrit weekly (or daily). It's not varied enough to repeat so frequently (unlike Dynamis and Limbus, where you had multiple zones you could fight through, and ultimate bosses you could take on at the end). Even Dynamis Lord would have gotten boring if you had to fight him 200 times in the span of 2 months.

I would ask that you please reconsider your position regarding drop rates. I understand if you want to make the currently limited content stretch as far as possible, but I don't feel low drop rates are the answer. A lot of folks burned out on Final Fantasy XIV at least partially because of how long it took to level up, especially crafting classes. I can't even to begin to tell you how thankful I am that leveling up crafting classes no longer feels like an impossibly long task. I would once again be unbelievably thankful if getting items from primal battles, etc. no longer felt like an impossibly long task.

I imagine you're worried folks will run out of things to do, but I feel they will be more appreciative and more willing to support the game if they feel like you care about them. Drastically increasing the drop rates would go a long way to proving that, and will cause us to worry a lot less about having to deal with incredibly low drop rates throughout the entire span of the game. Those of us who are here, definitely want to support the game. I myself was extremely disappointed in the state of the game at launch, and dozens of my friends left the game because of it. But I'm still here, because I believe that we're heading to somewhere amazing, that 2.0 will be just as fantastic as it seems. I'm given hope by all of the things that were done right to begin with, and everything that's been improved since then. I know a lot of things have to wait until 2.0, but drop rates isn't one of them. That's definitely something that can be addressed now.

Please consider my request.

I am 100% with you on this Hiruke. I really hope Yoshi-P reads this and decide to make the drops 100%.
You nailed the problem really good and I think the same, I feel the same.

It's one of the main thing holding FFXIV down and preventing it from becoming the most awesome MMORPG.
A great MMORPG is fun, not frustrating.

There is plenty of content and achievements to get to keep a player busy for several months, no need to demotivate the players with insanely frustrating drop rates.
New content is coming every months, of course people will keep playing! Even the ultra hardcore players that currently have everything will continue (actually this might help them get a life for a few days between each patch).

[Morticous]

The drop rate could be a tiny bit higher i guess but 100% drop rates is INSANE. I dont even have any of the primal drops and i think thats absolute whack. The devs dont want to keep pushing new content every 2-3 months.. they want to keep us busy for 5-7 months at least!

[TheVedis]

I refuse to support any form of increased drop rates until they put a much larger cooldown on re-entering dungeons

people whine about it, but its cause and effect


in other games, you have 100% drop rates but can only enter these things once every few days

here, you can enter as many times in a row as you have time to do, and the drop rate is horrible

its like that for a reason, if you can just enter over and over with high drop rates, you wont do the content after only a few tries and itl be worthless

[Tahldon]

I disagree with the increase of the drop rate. Sure, it sucks to run the same boss fight a thousand times to get duplicates of a weapon or none at all, but everyone here knows just as well as the next person that as soon as everyone gets the gear that they want from all dungeons and primals and everything else, then they quit because they'll have nothing else to pursue.

And, yes, I know that there are people who are quitting because they can't get Primal Weapons after four thousand runs and they can't get 7 of 7 weapons. Ultimately, they will come back and be able to still do the content with other people who are trying to party for primals too. It's a rough way to keep content alive, I'll agree, but it keeps people around to do the stuff also. They're trying to stretch things out, otherwise, even more people will be on the forums declaring how boring things are and that there isn't anything to do.

[UmJammerSully]

Well I don't think it would be too farfetched to think that even the devs themselves agree with you, OP.

But it's no secret that if they took out these methods of artifically extending the life of content then many people would stop playing the game entirely, which is bad for everyone.

All we can hope is that the drop-rates will be more reasonable in 2.0. I think beating a primal 10, maybe 20 times in order to earn a weapon you're after is just about reasonable, but when some people have beaten Ifrit once and got the weapon they wanted and some people have beaten him 100+ times with barely anything to show for it, something is definitely wrong.