Thread: Paladin button consolidation for 6.0

Originally Posted by Colt47

The reason I'm not particularly fond of paladin at the moment, even though it is definitely improved over prior versions, is that the idea of a tank is to mitigate damage to the group by taking the hits from the boss monster and weave defense cooldowns / support heals to assure that you keep standing. Paladin having three off global instant attacks to manage is a bit much and I think that they should have pruned some things that they didn't go through with.

If we really want to get down to it:

1) Spirits within is completely worthless. The purpose of it is to regain MP, but Atonement already does it and is part of the primary rotation along with riot blade, and the damage is inconsistent on it due to the tanks HP pool constantly being in flux. So there's no reason to even keep it at this point.
2) Atonement is basically combo motion 4-6 on the Royal Authority tree. It makes it more forgiving to have it off the combo chain, but at the same time eats up a button that really could be used for something else. I'm 50/50 on it.
3) Confiteor only has meaning when Requiscat is active, so why the heck does it have it's own button? It's like a button for buttons sake, you can still miss it one way or another, and it gets in the way of other useful cooldowns on the bar.
4) The only cooldown that I've ever used on tank that involves the funky shield tree is Sheltron. I've never once used either of the team oriented cooldowns because it requires too much effort to get a minimal benefit off. It's the same with the warrior skills and it's why I think that Cover and Intervention are kind of worthless. Just too much going on in serious end-game content to make those viable when you got an enrage timer to beat.
5) Paladin by far has the worst self healing skill of the bunch with clemency. I know they wanted to sort of mimic a cure type spell on paladin, but with it having a cast time and such a low payoff when not on requiscat combo, it really isn't worth the effort to use. I feel like it is there for cheesing old style content and that is about it.
6) Divine Veil and Passage of Arms are probably okay. I think Divine Veil can be a little tricky to proc sometimes when you want it, since it relies on others to heal you during a critical moment just to get the shield, so Divine Veil is sort of up there with Spirits Within on being an unpredictable bucking bronco.

Maybe you best learn the ins and outs of Paladin before giving critical analysis of the job. Making moronic statements like, "three off global instant attacks to manage is a bit much" are you actually serious? this isn't even remotely close to difficult in the slightest. They're as you said off-global which means you can press in between global cooldowns, if you're having problems with that then you probably have issue with your hotbar set up. At most you press two off-global cooldowns in between one global cooldown, it is not rocket science or anyway difficult, you can even manage Paladin off-globals by single weaving if you struggle to press two buttons between a global cooldown.

1) Spirits Within, is something extra to press to keep things engaging (not by much but it's still something to keep track of nonetheless). The only change Spirits Within needs is the removal of the stupid HP penalty aspect.

2) Atonement is fine as it currently is, the only possible change is, not allowing it to break combo, but personally I like that it does, as it forces you to be more careful with your rotation. Consolidation of Atonement with Royal Authority isn't really required as far as I'm concerned.

3) Confiteor I don't mind being merged onto Requiescat since it is only active when under the Requiescat buff.

4) This right here is a serious WTF moment. "it requires too much effort" how is it too much effort, you have targeting macros that ease the use of support skills, and it's not exactly difficult to target party members via kb/m or controller anyways. You do realise Intervention can be one of the strongest single target mitigation support skills, If you happen to have Rampart and Sentinel active at the same time, it is somewhere near 30% damage reduction (I'm sure someone can give the exact number that's better at maths than I). Tank support skills are meant to be used in conjunction with other skills, not the sole ability mitigating damage, except maybe TBN on Dark Knight, fight depending. "Just too much going on in serious end-game content to make those viable when you got an enrage timer to beat." You're literally talking out of you a**, since end game is where all these "useless skills" get the most usage, and they help ease the burden for the healers. If you can't make that tiny an effort to make use of these skills either stop playing tank, or git gud and learn to use them.

5) Paladin is the worst of the four tanks for self healing, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, as it has passive block to make up for the lack of passive healing the other three tanks have. Clemency is a situational skills that should only be used for dire situations, when healers are dead, to help push through prog, or you're soloing content, and it is good for those situations, it doesn't need to be more than that. It's thematic, it works and doesn't need changing.

6) Divine Veil requires you to know the fight, being able to make use of the initial 30 second window allows you to maximise the use of Divine Veil, which can be super helpful for healers, so have two veils on the party in a 60 second window. This usually only happens in statics more so than in random PUGs. The only changes for Veil I'd like to see, is an Excog effect after the initial 30 second window passes, and the shield applying to the Paladin who used Veil in the first place.

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

10% with nothing, 20% with Rampart, 25% with Sentinel and 35% if you use both Rampart and Sentinel.

Thank you for the numbers wasn't sure about the the boosted Intervention numbers, tend to forget over time lol

edit: for some reason assumed Diminishing Returns applies to Intervention for some reason.

Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Maybe you best learn the ins and outs of Paladin before giving critical analysis of the job....

Feel free to have an opinion of your own and shoot down what you want. I think the job would work a 1000 times better without a worthless ability that only acts as a mana regen button when we have two other abilities that do the same thing. No, I don't think removing the HP penalty aspect makes it any better. Yes, I think that support skills on a paladin that target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight. It's the job of the tank taking the hits to put up his mitigation and the heals to provide shields. The off tank maybe throws something on them, but really... this is just reminding me of warrior trying to use that ability that heals an ally when you hit stuff. It does so little you just don't care. Flavor points for the ability, and maybe in some cases it does have a purpose, but it could easily just go.

FYI I know the ins and outs of paladins. You assuming that someone having a different opinion than you on abilities means they don't know the class makes me wonder about you there.

Edit:

I actually have a lot more to say about the job than just ability cuts considering before I came here I level synched and ran it at 50, 60, and 70, did a savage e9s to get a feel for it there, practiced the rotation on a dummy for three days for an hour a day before stepping into savage, and also started a secondary character and ran it from level 1-30.

Come next expansion they absolutely need to get the rotation people use at end game online a LOT sooner. The job is absolutely under-gunning at levels 1-60. Atonement can easily come online far sooner as it is very similar in nature to fell cleave from warrior. Spirits within doesn't need to exist. Something more like Judgement Blade would be what I want, which would combine the benefits of shield bash into something we use more regularly (In Final Fantasy Tactics judgement blade applies applies STOP to an opponent, so stunning them would be perfectly fine).

I mean really the two skills that would be easiest to cut or merge into things is Shield Bash and Confiteor. Adding Judgement Blade would cut the need for shield bash and retain the classes ability to stun. Everything else is just opinion based preferences since when I'm running savage that is where rotation matters the most, and stopping to cast heals outside of requiscat combo is not something you'd want to do. I've never had to use the Intervention in savage and honestly, the few times I've done it people are already snap shotted by the attack so it doesn't really reduce damage (E10S with the blade is a good example. I've had luck using it on the orb phase, but the timing is tight)

Good for you, I've mained Paladin since I've started playing roughly 6 years ago, clearing every Savage from Creator up to and including current raid tier, and cleared two out of three Ultimates, UWU, TEA and have reached add phase in UCOB; I can say with absolute certainty you are talking s***. You sound like a casual noob asking devs to dumb down jobs because you can't git gud.

Spirits Within, is 740 potency and 1000mp, per minute, and one of Paladins signature abilities from ARR. The only issue with Spirits Within, is the HP penalty, but otherwise as stated before, it is something to track while doing rotation, which you press every 30 seconds, to get one under every Fight or Flight window, similar to Warrior's Upheaval, you keep off cooldown but ensure you always get one under every Inner Release window. Removing oGCDs will only make Paladin almost as braindead to play as Warrior. Spirits Within has it's uses and should remain in the toolkit.
"target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight" WTF are you talking about? all tanks support abilities are oGCDs, they are weave-able abilities that do not interfere with tanking nor does it interfere with your rotation, but work in the effort to mitigate damage, a tank's role in the first place. Also Nascent Flash on Warrior is 10% damage mitigation plus a portion of the healing the Warrior receives also giving to the Nascent Glint target. While you do not appreciate it, it still good practice to make use of these skills as best you can.

Also no you do not know Paladin inside and out, I'm sure in that statement.

As for your edit, No jobs do not need their end game rotation early on, otherwise new skills we learn between previous level cap and and new level cap with expansions will be underwhelming and takes away the fun of learning to adopt new rotations or modify previous expansion's rotation. You actually need to put effort in to learn.
Judgment Blade would be a pointless addition since we already have low blow in the tank role actions for stuns which is oGCD, and with the exceptions of most dungeon mobs and most bosses 50 or below, every other enemy you'll encounter will be immune to stun.
In savage you should never have to use Clemency unless, healers died, and trying to save a run so they can be raised or to help push through prog. Intervention you should throw onto any buster that isn't invulned and otherwise ideally you should be using for auto attacks so you don't overcap gauge, and won't put you out for Sheltron uses.

Don't see what's so hard about pressing more buttons. At this point why not just turn all actions into one button while you're at it.

Originally Posted by Shin96

Don't see what's so hard about pressing more buttons. At this point why not just turn all actions into one button while you're at it.

So the thing is, I'm not talking about dumbing down rotation but the guy above thinks I am, because they are going to replace whatever gets taken off. I have no idea why he is acting the way he is, but he isn't making any sense. And the fact he saying that the class doesn't need more of it's rotation early on means he is basically grinding nothing BUT end game, so he isn't seeing the forest for the trees. He's basically going off of the ye old "you aren't really a player unless you do X". There's a lot to unwrap with that since part of that frustration is because of SE and how they handled things on their end and actually segmented the savage raiding from... just about everything with the anti-parser stuff. This has been going on for years so I just kind of let them have their peace.

I actually 100% understand his points, though I don't think he understands them.

1) The job must have some level of management to be engaging. ("You sound like a casual noob asking devs to dumb down jobs because you can't git gud.")

2) End Game players are afraid of jobs becoming more accessible ("I've mained Paladin since I've started playing roughly 6 years ago, clearing every Savage from Creator up to and including current raid tier, and cleared two out of three Ultimates...")

But there are huge problems with his assessment. First is this one...

1) "No jobs do not need their end game rotation early on, otherwise new skills we learn between previous level cap and and new level cap with expansions will be underwhelming..."
A) Under what basis are you making this rather bold accusation? Have you gone back and tried it recently? Maybe you should and tell me that isn't hot garbage going levels 1-30. The only thing SE did was try and make it quick so the pain wouldn't last long.

2) "Spirits Within, is 740 potency and 1000mp, per minute, and one of Paladins signature abilities from ARR..."
A) And I'm saying that it is pointless with having Atonement because they could easily put the MP regen from that ability and spread it on Riot Blade + Atonement, replacing it with an ability that can be used on rotation that also can serve as a stun in older content. Nobody uses the damn shield slam outside of retro content and he should know that doing end game. Yet here he is, making accusation number 2 up above. Unless he wants to bestow his wisdom upon us on how useful shield slam is in Alexander ultimate?

3) "[target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight] all tanks support abilities are oGCDs, they are weave-able abilities that do not interfere with tanking..."
A) Fair point, and it is why I said that it was an opinion and probably not something substantial in the edited posting. The raw amount of vitriol in the response is just abhorrent to any kind of constructive conversation...

4) "In savage you should never have to use Clemency unless, healers died, and trying to save a run so they can be raised or to help push through prog. Intervention you should throw onto any buster that isn't invulned and otherwise ideally you should be using for auto attacks so you don't overcap gauge, and won't put you out for Sheltron uses."
A) The point on the intervention is that accessibility is an issue with jobs. Not sure how controller players manage with some of them, but this is how it works: MMO mice have 3 buttons per row and most people only finger memorize rows 1-2, with sometimes fiddling clumsily with rows 3 and 4. Controller players I believe have two sets of 4 buttons with one representing the D-pad and the other the ABCD buttons. 16-18 buttons are probably the max someone can really handle on either effectively, and 18 is an odd number for the controller player since they got to hot swap between two sets of 8 buttons. On the upside, they have two levels of 8 buttons where as an MMO mouse player has 3-4 layers of 6 buttons, so the controller player has advantage with some setups over the controller player.

It shouldn't be the players job to figure out the peripheral they need to use to be able to handle all the buttons. I've been MMO gaming for the past 10+ years: my left hand is in horrible shape and had to remove a ganglian cyst caused by excessive usage because of how much over stretching the index finger had to engage in (Started with FFXIV once button bloat happened). swapping to the MMO mouse saved my right hand and wrist, but unfortunately the left is a major problem since even with optimized controls, I'm still contorting my hand to press shift / alt / ctrl while pressing movement keys.

The thing is I'm being rather lenient with Aodhan. Reality is I think they totally should nuke some of the damn buttons. I don't like the fact that I need to be punished or encouraged by some internet spamming idiot to have physical injury induced as a part of "git gud". He can take his "git gud" and shove it.

Originally Posted by Colt47

So the thing is, I'm not talking about dumbing down rotation but the guy above thinks I am, because they are going to replace whatever gets taken off. I have no idea why he is acting the way he is, but he isn't making any sense. And the fact he saying that the class doesn't need more of it's rotation early on means he is basically grinding nothing BUT end game, so he isn't seeing the forest for the trees. He's basically going off of the ye old "you aren't really a player unless you do X". There's a lot to unwrap with that since part of that frustration is because of SE and how they handled things on their end and actually segmented the savage raiding from... just about everything with the anti-parser stuff. This has been going on for years so I just kind of let them have their peace.

You literally said three oGCDs is too much, you actually did ask for dumbing down. You said Support skills are useless, more dumbing down.

Also I do a lot of casual content too at various different levels, and it doesn't bother me missing half my toolkit when sync'd down because I have enough skills and abilities at those levels to complete that content. So don't presume to generalise me as "he only does end game content" because that's you talking out of your a** yet again.
Nor did I say you weren't "a player unless you did x". You started listing off your "accolades" on Paladin, as if it gave you some sort of authority on Paladin, so I engaged with you my own accolades.

Originally Posted by Colt47

I actually 100% understand his points, though I don't think he understands them.

1) The job must have some level of management to be engaging. ("You sound like a casual noob asking devs to dumb down jobs because you can't git gud.")

2) End Game players are afraid of jobs becoming more accessible ("I've mained Paladin since I've started playing roughly 6 years ago, clearing every Savage from Creator up to and including current raid tier, and cleared two out of three Ultimates...")

1) Yes Jobs do need to have some degrees of management otherwise it is mindless press button in same order ad nauseam.

2) There is nothing wrong with accessibility so long as it doesn't make jobs braindead.

Originally Posted by Colt47

But there are huge problems with his assessment. First is this one...

1) "No jobs do not need their end game rotation early on, otherwise new skills we learn between previous level cap and and new level cap with expansions will be underwhelming..."
A) Under what basis are you making this rather bold accusation? Have you gone back and tried it recently? Maybe you should and tell me that isn't hot garbage going levels 1-30. The only thing SE did was try and make it quick so the pain wouldn't last long.

2) "Spirits Within, is 740 potency and 1000mp, per minute, and one of Paladins signature abilities from ARR..."
A) And I'm saying that it is pointless with having Atonement because they could easily put the MP regen from that ability and spread it on Riot Blade + Atonement, replacing it with an ability that can be used on rotation that also can serve as a stun in older content. Nobody uses the damn shield slam outside of retro content and he should know that doing end game. Yet here he is, making accusation number 2 up above. Unless he wants to bestow his wisdom upon us on how useful shield slam is in Alexander ultimate?

3) "[target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight] all tanks support abilities are oGCDs, they are weave-able abilities that do not interfere with tanking..."
A) Fair point, and it is why I said that it was an opinion and probably not something substantial in the edited posting. The raw amount of vitriol in the response is just abhorrent to any kind of constructive conversation...

4) "In savage you should never have to use Clemency unless, healers died, and trying to save a run so they can be raised or to help push through prog. Intervention you should throw onto any buster that isn't invulned and otherwise ideally you should be using for auto attacks so you don't overcap gauge, and won't put you out for Sheltron uses."
A) The point on the intervention is that accessibility is an issue with jobs. Not sure how controller players manage with some of them, but this is how it works: MMO mice have 3 buttons per row and most people only finger memorize rows 1-2, with sometimes fiddling clumsily with rows 3 and 4. Controller players I believe have two sets of 4 buttons with one representing the D-pad and the other the ABCD buttons. 16-18 buttons are probably the max someone can really handle on either effectively, and 18 is an odd number for the controller player since they got to hot swap between two sets of 8 buttons. On the upside, they have two levels of 8 buttons where as an MMO mouse player has 3-4 layers of 6 buttons, so the controller player has advantage with some setups over the controller player.

It shouldn't be the players job to figure out the peripheral they need to use to be able to handle all the buttons. I've been MMO gaming for the past 10+ years: my left hand is in horrible shape and had to remove a ganglian cyst caused by excessive usage because of how much over stretching the index finger had to engage in (Started with FFXIV once button bloat happened). swapping to the MMO mouse saved my right hand and wrist, but unfortunately the left is a major problem since even with optimized controls, I'm still contorting my hand to press shift / alt / ctrl while pressing movement keys.
The thing is I'm being rather lenient with Aodhan. Reality is I think they totally should nuke some of the damn buttons. I don't like the fact that I need to be punished or encouraged by some internet spamming idiot to have physical injury induced as a part of "git gud". He can take his "git gud" and shove it.

1) So the whole part of a new expansion is getting new actions to play with, so in your view we should get them all at once and then that's it no new actions between 80-90 ... BOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIINNNGGGGGGGG. So between 1-30, you spend very little time between 1-30, especially with boost exp gains, and if you happen to get a duty in roulettes that puts you in that range, at most you will spend 15-20 minutes maximum, boohoo, not like that small fraction of time is gonna affect your entire time playing the game. The content is design that way so new players can actually learn to play their respective jobs and not get overwhelmed by a full toolkit right away.

2) At no point did I acknowledge Shield Bash, this is my first time mentioning the skill in my discordance with you, and the most recent use for this skill was add phase in Shiva Savage, for the Earthen Sprites, when progging or DPS was hot garbage. But I don't even have Shield Bash on my hotbar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I still don't see the need for the removal of Spirit's Within, the more button to manage the better, if it's too much for you, go play Warrior.

3) The vitriol is warranted if you can call it that, when you ignorantly claim that tank support to be useless, out of anecdotal evidence instead of fact, spreading of misinformation is a detriment to the community and should not be condoned.

4) Accessibility issue is false, simple macro like /ac "Intervention" <2> would go onto your co tank, and occupies one hotbar slot instead of needing to target a party member. Said macro can be modified to <mo> for mouse over, or <tt> target's target.
I started out on PS4, thus I played on controller for 4years+ and not had an issue targeting manually. Not sure where you're getting your information in regards to the third and fourth row of an mmo mouse, I've not had any issues memorizing 7-12 on mine, I find it quite comfortable, and it made the world of difference swapping from controller to kb/m.

I'll be blunt, I've had to censor a great deal of words or hold my tongue, when speaking to you thus far to hold some modicum of respect and keep within the terms of the forums, so do not call me an idiot which is breach of the ToS, and this is a forum, where by I can critically address anything and everything you say without stooping to insults. Sorry that you had to suffer an injury, but I genuinely believe no job should be dumbed down to cater to a minority of the playerbase, simply because they might have suffered some injury that SE themselves can't remedy. Not trying to sound heartless, but that's a you problem. There is plenty of other jobs with a lower APM that can be easily played without having to affect the whole community at large to cater to one person, that's just entitlement to expect SE to do this.