Fandaniel and the Depths of Ascian Tempering

[Anonymoose]

After Patches 5.3 and 5.4, I've noticed a greater degree of diversity in assumptions, opinions, and theories regarding this topic than I expected.

In the MSQ, Emet-Selch makes no bones about it that the act of summoning Zodiark brought the Convocation "into symbiosis with His energy" and thus tempered them. His psyche was so powerful that even the Ancients could not resist this phenomenon through which primals temper the beast tribes today. For that reason, they are attuned to and exist for the primordial energy of activation and intensification (aka Darkness) and increasing its share in the cosmos, "For Zodiark."

In Eden, Gaia suggests that memory is a key component - that if the mortals Mitron and Loghrif had become never regained their memories, their "duty to Zodiark" could not have compelled them. Moreover, we see Gaia, remembering Ancient Gaia, taking on the energy of Darkness and showing the Lohgrif glyph herself.

So what of Fandaniel?

He has no first-hand memories of the world that was lost and is filled with resentment at being treated like "just another disposable underling." He says Elidibus had to constantly keep him in line and they never liked each other. My mind goes right to Nabriales. I can't help but start with the assumption that he's still tempered and that he simply thinks he knows better than the Originals the best way to make Zodiark happy.

But he also claims to act with "sovereignty."

So what do you all think? Are the leftover sundered Ascians tempered? To what degree can they diverge from the Originals' plan? From what Zodiark wants?

[MoofiaBossVal]

It could be that the effects of tempering do not persist through sundering and/or reincarnation. If Gaia had the free will to refuse to rejoin the Ascians, then Fandaniel could too.

It could also be that this is a Ramuh situation, where the Ascians were tempered, but Zodiark has not actually given them any commands to go out and kill people and bring him back.

We have precedent for Primals that refuse to indulge in mass murder, even when their followers want it: Ramuh. A subset of Sylphs summoned Ramuh out of fear, and he did not immediately temper them, nor indulge in the violence they requested. It was only after their repeated requests that he tempered those who wanted to be tempered to alleviate their fears, and even then, he never commanded them to go fight Gridania. The tempered Sylphs you can aggro in the Black Shroud aren't fighting you on Ramuh's orders; they are fighting you of their own volition (afraid of you).

We know that the Convocation wanted to sacrifice the new life to Zodiark, but we never found out if Zodiark himself was on board for that. Elidibus' status is Zodiark is rather murky, as it sounded to me like Zodiark regurgitated Elidibus' soul, and that the two are separate entities.

I don't think Fandaniel is operating in service of Zodiark, either because the tempering wore off and he is not being ordered to revive him, or because Zodiark never actually gave any command. I think Fandaniel is operating using his own free will.

[Veloran]

I think the idea that they're tempered is flawed from a number of angles.
First and pretty obviously, the Echo. It seemingly (Hydaelyn theories notwithstanding) allows all those who have it to effectively be immune to tempering, we even see Echo-users capable of outright shielding others from the aether of Primals. So, if all the Ancients had the Echo, how were they tempered?

Attendant to this is the issue of what Zenos says regarding the Echo and tempering, that the Echo in fact makes your will superior to that of a Primal in some way, and thus their will cannot override your own. However, he demonstrates this by forcibly mantling Shinryu and controlling him. This creates a secondary issue regarding Elidibus as Zodiark's heart - If Zodiark was summoned through Elidibus, and seemingly Elidibus' will controlled him, why would he temper anybody?

Next are the issues presented by Emet-Selch and Mitron. As we know, the tempered are driven to carry out the will of their Primal - Yet, Emet actively worked against Zodiark in leaving the Azem stone to WoL and then even saving WoL in the battle with Elidibus. And Mitron, his plans had nothing to do with Zodiark and arguably worked against Zodiark as well, he wished to compress time simply to be with Gaia for all eternity.

Related to Mitron and Gaia is the fact that, so far as we know, tempering is undone upon someone's death. As all the sundered Ascians died, none of them should be tempered. It being a matter of memory doesn't make much sense, as it's always been shown as an aetherial issue with the Primal's aether imprinting into someone, and a trip through the Lifestream really should wash away any such aetherial influence upon the body and soul.

And Fandaniel, he's an even worse can of worms. The Final Days was literally what Zodiark was summoned to stop, if he was tempered why would he go about trying to restart it? Moreover he suggests that he was shackled to the wills of the Unsundered somehow, and now that they're gone he's completely free to live however he wishes. That in itself really doesn't read as, "I'm free - To follow Zodiark the way I want to", it would be pretty weird for it to be like that considering his dialog and actions.

[Cilia]

Well, something to consider is that death is supposed to undo tempering. Even if their memories (in part or in whole) are restored, there's no guarantee that'll redo their tempering. Further, while they prefer to use reincarnations of Convocation members, they don't have to, so it's plausible "this" Fandaniel isn't and never was tempered by Zodiark.

To cut to the heart of the matter, I'm doubtful any of the sundered Ascians ever were tempered. Other than Igeyorhm's devotion (which was probably helped by Lahabrea holding her reins after the fiasco with the Thirteenth), they've all displayed degrees of erratic behavior likely stemming from their mortal selves. Nabriales is impatient and rash, acting brazenly when he realizes the Rising Stones is unprotected. Loghrif and Mitron, from what we saw of them, were likely more devoted to each other than resurrecting Zodiark. Fandaniel appears to have only paid lip service to the cause, and only then because Elidibus (etc.) was keeping him on a tight leash.

Without anyone to actually keep them on track, there's no reason to assume they're bound to the plans of the Unsundered. The first thing Fandaniel does after realizing Elidibus is (probably) gone is to dance and happily declare that he is no longer bound by "moldering memories [and] damnable duty," showing that whatever the others may do (if anything) he clearly does not care about the plans of the Unsundered or restoring Zodiark.

[RyuDragnier]

Next are the issues presented by Emet-Selch and Mitron. As we know, the tempered are driven to carry out the will of their Primal - Yet, Emet actively worked against Zodiark in leaving the Azem stone to WoL and then even saving WoL in the battle with Elidibus. And Mitron, his plans had nothing to do with Zodiark and arguably worked against Zodiark as well, he wished to compress time simply to be with Gaia for all eternity.

Related to Mitron and Gaia is the fact that, so far as we know, tempering is undone upon someone's death. As all the sundered Ascians died, none of them should be tempered. It being a matter of memory doesn't make much sense, as it's always been shown as an aetherial issue with the Primal's aether imprinting into someone, and a trip through the Lifestream really should wash away any such aetherial influence upon the body and soul.

This makes me wonder, if they are tempered, did Zodiark give them a message like Hydaelyn gave us? If so, what was it, that they would be able to follow their own wills? I'm still of the mindset that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are just opposite sides of the Will of the Planet, and that they both have the same thing they want...for life to flourish and grow. The difference may be as simple as Zodiark willing to causing great change fast in order for life to flourish, while Hydaelyn wants change to happen slowly over time for life to flourish. Two opposing viewpoints, yet together create how the world itself currently works.

[Anonymoose]

This is already rapid-fire in every direction! Ahhh! I'm not sure if I'm going to get juggle the replies-to-the-replies in this post. (Though, as always, I'm just trying to parry points into other points to cover all our bases more than argue for the "right" way to interpret something that hasn't even happened, yet.)

So is one theory that the writers are discarding all of this off as indentured lip-service?

Fourteen Ascians
To the one true god! To Zodiark!

Nabriales
I shall rise above them all and take my place at Lord Zodiark's right hand!

Nabriales
I shall not toy with you as does Lahabrea! Witness the terrible might of a true servant of Zodiark!

Igeyorhm
Plainly, you desire a foe to despise. And 'tis well that you do, for it is from the vortex of ceaseless conflict that Lord Zodiark shall be reborn.

Igeyorhm
For the glory of Lord Zodiark.

First and pretty obviously, the Echo. It seemingly (Hydaelyn theories notwithstanding) allows all those who have it to effectively be immune to tempering, we even see Echo-users capable of outright shielding others from the aether of Primals. So, if all the Ancients had the Echo, how were they tempered?

If I were to go by precedent alone? I'd say the Zenos and Emet-Selch lines did account for this potentially: The [Will of the Star] has far greater psychic influence than even the Ancients were capable of resisting. Even if Zodiark was "airtight" as a successful Creation and did not leak influence, and did not spread influence on purpose, the summoners could not resist it once they "came into symbiosis with His energy" to make it happen.

Zenos
I speak of the Echo, of course. Does it merely render you immune to eikonic influence? Or is it rather that your influence is far greater than theirs?

Emet-Selch
He tempered us. It was only natural. There is no resisting such power.

Emet actively worked against Zodiark in leaving the Azem stone to WoL and then even saving WoL in the battle with Elidibus.

Devil's Advocate: How does anything Emet-Selch did when he was alive knowingly go against Zodiark? How would creating a stone in secret for his best friend, hoping they'd eventually find themselves on the same side or be reunited in the world restored, go against Zodiark? It violate Convocation norms, but Zodiark Himself? Which ties into...

Death = Untemper

We've always seen that in the moment before your soul is scattered, you seem to become yourself again. We even see it with Emet-Selch and Eldibus. But what if you never intend to return to the Lifestream? What if you dodge it? Or what if the scattered soul is reassembled or restored?

I took the scenes in Eden (and the entirety of G'raha's plan and the cure for tempering itself) to be saying that memory and soul are so deeply entwined that the only way to cure tempering is to boost the subjugated "self" back over the primal's "self"-influence. What if the memory is restored, and thus the self, but the self has never and could never be stronger than Zodiark, which is how they were tempered in the first place?

Am I wrong to it as an example of:
Mortal Gaia with No Memories of Ancient Gaia = Mortal Gaia the Active Persona = Untempered
Mortal Gaia with Memories of Ancient Gaia = Ancient Gaia the Active Persona = Possibly Tempered

The Final Days was literally what Zodiark was summoned to stop, if he was tempered why would he go about trying to restart it?

Think about this backwards instead of forwards - instead of assuming he can't be tempered, assume that he must - just for the fun of the consideration. Why a loyal servant of Zodiark who worked for His resurrection and dominance re-create the very conditions that arose to Him being summoned the first time? Why would a loyal servant of Zodiark who worked for His resurrection and dominance re-create the very conditions that gave Him purpose and strength, and made all yearn for the salvation of the world - his very raison d'etre? Why wouldn't he?

[JeanneOrnitier]

Using Gaia as precedent/example I'm inclined to think all of the sundered Ascians are indeed not tempered, but even though they're (probably) not they still have their Ancient memories. The sundered praising Zodiark and all that would still make sense if they want to serve him based on their restored memories, rather than because they're forced to by tempering. Except Fandaniel, who essentially says "Screw that noise."

[Rosenstrauch]

I'd say not enough has actually been done with the reveal to discount the possibility that the sundered are also tempered. Wherever the tempered are present in the plot, the fact that they are tempered is overt and obvious. By contrast, if it weren't for the fact that Emet-Selch explicitly said so, we'd probably have people arguing that he couldn't be tempered. Heck, his shenanigans with the Hythlodaeus shade would be downright damning to the idea. And to put it mildly, Elidibus is a bit of a mess to sort out, what with the revelation that he's also a primal, Zodiark's heart, and himself all at once.

I'm inclined to believe the sundered are tempered, but there's some serious murkiness towards it that's just not present in the usual tempered characters. Not helping matters is that 5.4 introduced the idea that a primal's will is not necessarily defined by how they act, or even the purpose for which they were summoned. It's possible that Zodiark is the same, in which case we have to ask ourselves what Zodiark's will even is, if not the salvation of the world he was summoned to protect.

It's entirely possible that Zodiark's will is simply "Spread Darkness", with the Unsundered being the only ones sound of mind enough to reign in their lesser brethren and keep them from self-destructively following that will. Or to put it another way: Elidibus and Emet-Selch were the only two who care about what Zodiark "needs", while the rest are driven by what Zodiark "wants".

All that said, Fandaniel is certainly presenting himself as someone motivated wholly by self interest. But as I've said before, I think his "I just want to everything to die" schtick is an act he's putting on. He really could turn out to be that shallow, with any interesting and unrevealed truth coming out of him being unrelated to that desire, but I doubt it.

[MoofiaBossVal]

Using Gaia as precedent/example I'm inclined to think all of the sundered Ascians are indeed not tempered, but even though they're (probably) not they still have their Ancient memories. The sundered praising Zodiark and all that would still make sense if they want to serve him based on their restored memories, rather than because they're forced to by tempering. Except Fandaniel, who essentially says "Screw that noise."

The uplifted sundered are not actually given their real memories back.

Htyhlodaeus in Etched in the Stars
As you will have gathered, each crystal bears an account of the life of a member of the Convocation as remembered by the unsundered.

So they are being given artificial "memories" that were made up by Emet-Selch, Elidibus, and Lahabrea. And the Unsundered didn't live the lives of the Sundered; they only saw parts of their lives from an outsider's point of view. You don't live your friend's life, do you? If he had amnesia, you could try to tell him what you think he was like and what he did, but you weren't with him 100% of the time and you didn't live in his head and know his thoughts. There is no way that these artificial memories are anywhere close to the actual thing. If they had done what the Scions did and anchored/copied their real memories into auracite (or a soul crystal?) while they were still alive, then perhaps their reincarnations could have gotten their real memories back later.

Perhaps this is a source of the resentment of the sundered towards the unsundered; Elidibus and Emet kept telling them that they were best buds and this is what they did together... but the unsundered know that wasn't their real memories. All the sundered Ascians know is that they were minding their own business living a normal life when suddenly, one day, these two dudes showed up, suddenly thrust these "memories" upon them that might not even be real. "Were totally your best friends! You need to help up blow up your world and kill your family and everyone you knew, to restore these people you never even knew about until we told you about them, who you care about because we say you care about them! And don't think about NOT helping us kill your family, because we're going to watch over your shoulder 24/7!". I wouldn't be surprised if - after Emet and Elidibus were suspected to be dead - that some Ascians decided to waltz off and go be with their wives and kids they had prior to being kidnapped and "uplifted".

[Vyrerus]

So what do you all think?

One thing that has become abundantly clear about the Ascians is that they are people first and foremost with their own deeply personal desires. As far as I can tell, all of them save Lahabrea and Igeyorhm are more in line with their personal wishes than with any overarching plan.


The other thing we know about Ascians from seeing Gaia demonstrate it firsthand is that when they reincarnate without their old memories, their souls still seem to have their old powers. "Power of Darkness, answer my call!" It speaks to me of the Summoner questline where in order to summon an Egi of a Primal, you must have been soaked in its aetherial signature. So, theoretically, what all Ascians do when they channel the power of darkness is channel the aetherial signature of Zodiark, much like the Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance... more like the Zodiark Trance.

You might be thinking, "But Gaia's power revolves around time manipulation, not just darkness, so it must be her unique thing..." Wrong! In the Chrysalis fight with Nabriales, he creates a pocket dimension within the pocket dimension, where everything is inverted, and time on buffs/debuffs is dilated.

As for how this relates to their tempering status, I think it means that more or less every Ascian save the Unsundered were completely untempered, and they were being compelled to duty to Zodiark by the Unsundered. Those with Zodiark stained souls make better servants, because they have a direct understanding of what Zodiark's powers are, since they have capability of the trance. Moreover, based on Gaia, they get a deep sense of self actualization upon learning about their past life and memory. I can only imagine what it's like for those "lucky" few who were raised to a Convocation seat without having the soul of an original Convocation member.

And regardless, none of the sundered are supposed to be as powerful as the unsundered, and even if they achieved greater power by now, they weren't that powerful when they were raised to the seat. Being forced to take on memories they can't actually identify with likely leads to a schism of the mind, and so they are slaves to the servants of Zodiark, powerless to break their chains themselves. I think that's Fandaniel to a T, personally, but that's just my take.

As far as the tempering state of the Unsundered, I think they are tempered. However, since they implanted Zodiark's imperative, it was already their imperative from the start. Save the star. Where it went wrong was when Zodiark required unending sacrifice. Where modern, lesser primals require crystals, Zodiark requires souls. Tending the harvest of souls, and then afterwards when they lost the war, tending to the Rejoinings are their only imperatives from their tempering. Desiring to bring back the initial sacrifices doesn't supersede this imperative, nor does helping Azem. Though, we could also say that because Zodiark is sealed and split, and his tempering ancient, that the effects of it are so diminished that it is only present in that it happened, and was once the impetus for their duty, now only the memory of it fueling their way forward.