[@Devs] Please revise the current Armory System

[Karazaki]

To all forum members who might read this, please understand and keep in mind that I am voicing two concerns that some players have and not starting an argument, discussion, flamewar, or wishlist regarding the Armory System. If you have input strictly regarding the two concerns voiced below, feel free to add your own opinions, otherwise please keep irrelevant topics for other threads.


Dear Devs,

I'm aware that the number of topics and threads regarding classes/jobs is quite large, so please forgive me if I'm restating a concern that has already been voiced in any of the official forums (Japanese, English, French, German, etc). I have no doubt that the arrival of version 2.0 will usher in Armory System reforms, however I do have two major concerns regarding the class/job mechanics.

The first of these concerns is the class/job mechanic. Currently classes and jobs are too similar to justify having both. Unless jobs become significantly more distinguishable from their class counterparts or there is a notable amount of jobs that can branch from each base class, then it might be better to meld both class and jobs together into a single class. However, if several new jobs are indeed created per base class (maybe not all at once) then there is the problem of players having those new jobs automatically leveled due to the shared EXP pool between classes and jobs.

The second of these concerns is the restriction of a single weapon type per class/job. While it may defy the core principles of the Armory System, allowing players 1+ different weapon type options per class/job would lead to more flavors of the same class/job instead of everyone having the exact same generic build. Different weapon options or perhaps a secondary weapon (not to be confused with dual-wielding) could allow players to adapt their classes/jobs to different enemies or battle situations as well as give players the option to use more intricate battle tactics.

I'm aware you might not be in a position to reveal any information, but if possible it would be appreciated to know your opinions regarding these two concerns. Thank you for reading this post. Whether you [the Devs] consider these concerns or not, I have faith in your decisions and results you are striving for.

--Karazaki

[BlaiseLallaise]

You are correct, Jobs do not add a whole lot to what Classes currently are. I think I know how this happened. It goes all the way back to the days before Jobs were introduced. As I recall, the story goes something like this:

* The following is a dramatization *

SE: You wanted classic job names? You wanted more defined party roles? Well good news! You will get all that in the new "Job System".
Players: That's nice, but classes are still too homogenized and need more distinction.
SE: *sigh* Fine.
Players: Yay! Hey wait, now Classes are just like Jobs. What's the point of having both?

* End dramatization *

So what went wrong? SE gave the players what they wanted by removing class homogeneity, replacing it with more defined party roles, which was the primary purpose of the Job system. What results is a system that is more of a fun thing to do, instead of the party role-defining system it was supposed to be.

IMO, to fix the issue of Classes and Jobs being too similar, the Armory System needs to become a little less specific and more homogenized, something between what it was and what it now is. I believe what some fail to understand is that the Armory System at its core was supposed to be homogenous in order to allow people the freedom to play their way. Jobs were the perfect solution to defining party roles, but class and battle reform stole its thunder.

If Classes were to broaden in order to allow more viable cross-class functionality, then the one class, one weapon topic becomes moot, especially as it is a fundamental aspect of the Armory system and can't easily be removed without removing the system entirely. I like where they are headed, but I feel they made an error by creating such well-defined classes.

[syntaxlies]

they just need to add job traits to amplify skills a bit when on a job. I think that could fix almost everything(including pld)

[Skies]

I do remember the dev staff mentioning that they were planning on having more than two jobs per class.
I have to, however, question your 'concern' regarding job growth. Remember that jobs have an 'alternate' levelling, being a quest-based advancement. I am not very sure at all what you see as a problem there.

Also, if you do pay attention, they're not exactly limited to one weapon per class but one 'type' of weapon, like axes (of which there ARE a variety of), polearms (there are a lot ranging from bardiches to quarterstaves), blades (from knives to bastard swords), etcetera. So yes, they do and can in fact 'vary' each class's weapons within the types and have each weapon 'subtype' have a variation in abilities (like, I do think that knives are faster and deal more crits and blades are slower and cause more damage. Also I do think that longbows and shortbows have different attributes overalls, same with small and large shields). I just think that this is the sort of thing they're leaving for 2.0 given it's not ACTUALLY worth the effort to implement it right now (or at least I do not think it is).

[Orophin]

The first of these concerns is the class/job mechanic. Currently classes and jobs are too similar to justify having both. Unless jobs become significantly more distinguishable from their class counterparts or there is a notable amount of jobs that can branch from each base class, then it might be better to meld both class and jobs together into a single class. However, if several new jobs are indeed created per base class (maybe not all at once) then there is the problem of players having those new jobs automatically leveled due to the shared EXP pool between classes and jobs.

Personally, I think they've done a pretty good job distinguishing classes from jobs. Yes, jobs do have every ability that their class counterpart has, but they have abilities that make them stand apart as well. Jobs are also restricted in what abilities they can pull from other classes, so you don't see the "Everyone must have Sentinel for Ifrit" anymore.

I don't think the shared xp thing is a problem either. As it sits right now, you're basically just adding 5 more abilities to your palette of everything you've already learned between 1-50 on the class, so it shouldn't be much of a learning curve to figure out the other abilities. This really doesn't warrant a need to level a job from scratch.

MY personal issue with the armory system is how classes are rendered nearly useless at max level. I mean I guess it makes sense since jobs were designed to replace classes for party play. THM is about the only one that has any situational use in the dungeons. Otherwise, classes are pretty much only useful for soloing purposes while leveling up.

The second of these concerns is the restriction of a single weapon type per class/job. While it may defy the core principles of the Armory System, allowing players 1+ different weapon type options per class/job would lead to more flavors of the same class/job instead of everyone having the exact same generic build. Different weapon options or perhaps a secondary weapon (not to be confused with dual-wielding) could allow players to adapt their classes/jobs to different enemies or battle situations as well as give players the option to use more intricate battle tactics.

I think if their plans are to have each class branch into multiple jobs, those JOBs should use a different weapon. I'm not really for each class/job using multiple weapons since the skills are class based and not weapon based. I used multiple weapons in FFXI because:

1) Each weapon skill level was something to advance
2) Each weapon had different skills associated with them

The issue I have with using multiple weapons within a class is that there is no variety in what skills you're using; you're just using the same WS with a different weapon. What I feel they should do is keep each weapon unique to its class/job.

Touching back on multiple job paths per class, let's say Gladiator becomes Paladin and Dark Knight. I believe there should be weapons developed that are DRK ONLY, just as there are weapons that are PLD ONLY. That way, they can create the Great Sword or Scythe weapon type and assign it only to DRK. I don't know if they want to go back and rework all the current jobs or not, but I think this would work pretty well, instead of making Great Sword or Scythe a class weapon that's shared with a job. One of the potential problems with this though is how much more itemization it'll add. (if that's considered a problem?)

In summary, I think things work pretty well now, but the system as a whole could use some tweaking. I'm sure this is under consideration for 2.0, but it remains to be seen what changes they'll actually implement. It seems right now their priority is to add another caster class, so we're probably only going to see one new class/job combo at 2.0 launch.

[PunkRocker]

They need to just get rid of classes and keep jobs, and have us unlock jobs as stand alone classes not linked to anything. Linking jobs to classes will make it hard to make newer jobs down the line more unique if they have to be linked to the class and use its base skills. If they just released jobs by themselves they could make them as unique as they wanted to without having to worry about keeping them within the class they are linked to.

Another thing that would fix is the EXP being shared between class/job, which is horrible imo. In 2.0 when it hopefully brings in "new players" and we all have 50s, and they release new jobs, theres really no reason for us to go and play with new people who join if our jobs all start at 50.

[Saiph]

i will add my concern: lets say they will add Dark Knight as a job for Gladiator, wouldnt he have the 15 base skills from Gladiator just as Paladin and have 5 new skills. But the diffrence would be rly small compared to Paladin. Also would the 15 base Skills even fit Dark Knight at all?

And how will they solve the Weapons? For example if Dark Knight has a two handed sword, but Gladiator doesnt have one? will they just add them for Gladiator too?

i rly want them to succed with this system but there are things which doesnt make sense atm. and just remove the Classes and replace them with jobs only doesnt work too, because the Armory system is to deep in this game. would be way too much work.

[Saiph]

removing the classes would take way too much time and work. there are quests, lore, items etc you would need to rework. this would take months if not longer.
Of course the could make it so thats for example Gladiator is the mainjob and when you advance with it you will become a paladin. SO it would be just a higher ranking in the same job. but it would be still a lot of work and i dont see it happen.

[Skies]

i will add my concern: lets say they will add Dark Knight as a job for Gladiator, wouldnt he have the 15 base skills from Gladiator just as Paladin and have 5 new skills. But the diffrence would be rly small compared to Paladin. Also would the 15 base Skills even fit Dark Knight at all?

And how will they solve the Weapons? For example if Dark Knight has a two handed sword, but Gladiator doesnt have one? will they just add them for Gladiator too?

i rly want them to succed with this system but there are things which doesnt make sense atm. and just remove the Classes and replace them with jobs only doesnt work too, because the Armory system is to deep in this game. would be way too much work.

Actually, thinking about Dark Knight it'll either fit Marauder or Lancer better than it fits Gladiator, just as a note. Probably all the different jobs will be getting pretty unique with the 5 abilities they get, for example check Bard, do you think it'll play even remotely close to what a possible 'Ranger' job would?

It's also pretty possible for there to be job-exclusive weapons, after all aren't they adding Job AF Weapons in the close future after all?

[Saiph]

yes of course the will be diffrent in their job defining abilities but 15 out of 20 abilities will still be the same and you will still use them more often then the job specific abilities because they have relative high cooldowns.
Its just a concern i have because i dont know yet how the devs will handle all this.
The Dark Knight was just an example. I also remember some developer post about how gladiator could get Dark Knight.