Fix Summoner Once and For All in 6.0 Please!

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

The primary reason I don't miss Stormblood Summoner is because the lockouts and oGCD Wyrmwaves forced you to hold and burn cooldowns in a terrible manner to accommodate a shoddily designed but mathematically necessary rotation. It felt like pure developer hatred for the way Heavensward tore up their terrible idea for DWT and Aethertrail. The only class with a worse rotation than it from a design standpoint was Machinist. Current Summoner isn't even remotely close to that. It also isn't nearly as punishing. There is no difference between Phoenix and Bahamut numerically or mechanically. Their actual differences lie in Trances, where DWT is 400 potency less than FBT once you do the math, plus the cast time differences; I believe potency difference is even less on AoE (Outburst is good). Sure, you're encouraged to save Ruin IVs for Bahamut, but it is not a big deal. Using Ruin II to get the wyrmwaves right is still a DPS gain, and only matters for the last two to three GCDs you use during Bahamut. Tri-Disaster and Devotion work exactly the same as they did in Stormblood. I dislike both for the same reasons I hated Summoner in Stormblood. Same issues. Lesser Degree.

Overall, moving away from what remains of Stormblood's bad decisions, merging stuff down, and bringing back Aetherflow so Trance can be flexed again solves every issue we have. Do that and Summoner doesn't need any more major changes in its rotation. It just needs pets to function properly.

[Raikai]

SMN was my main in SB, but ShB's playstyle ruined it for me... Before was strict, yeah it was, but at least it wasn't the disorganized mess that it is right now. Every major patch I try to get back to it, but the job feels bad to me personally. I can't even find a cohesive way to set my keybinds, because the actions feel so disconnected.

Some of the things that I dislike:

1) Dreadwyrm Trance should be the same button as Summon Bahamut! It would make it a bit more cohese with how Demi-Phoenix is summoned, and would save a keybind.

3) Adding to the point above, the Dreadwyrm trance itself (the 12-ish seconds before Bahamut) feels out of place at this rate. Again, I think cohesion with how the Demi is summoned is a plus.

4) Why 2 Egi assaults when they achieve the same potency single target? Wouldn't be better to have just 01 action with 4 charges?

5) Aetherflow feels completely disconnected to the job at this rate... When we are so focused on going through the Trances and the Demis, and managing Further Ruin stacks and Egi assault stacks... Might as well just give Fester and Painflare 2 charges and bake Energy Drain's damage into them.

6) Kind of a forgotten subject... But why Physick can't get a trait to scale with Int instead, post level 30, so we can finally use it to something? It wouldn't be as good as Vercure or even Curing Waltz, but can help you live on a tight situation.

7) This is just more of a wishful thinking... Regarding what we have now. Phoenix works the same way as Bahamut (8 gcds, 2 enkindles)... just using different buttons. I wish Phoenix was more distinct in that regard.

8) Further Ruin deserved a gauge of its own.

[Grimoire-M]

SMN was my main in SB, but ShB's playstyle ruined it for me... Before was strict, yeah it was, but at least it wasn't the disorganized mess that it is right now. Every major patch I try to get back to it, but the job feels bad to me personally. I can't even find a cohesive way to set my keybinds, because the actions feel so disconnected.

My Keybinds for Summoner look like this:


I think they're fairly intuitive, but I know that my setup isn't remotely like the default WASD controls + CTRL/ALT/SHIFT + 1 through 0. I'd clump things differently on a controller just to account for cross-hotbar swapping.

The problems Summoner has right now are like Monk's post-trim-down. Rotation's simple and functional, but the synergy and interaction between elements of the kit is practically non-existent. Obvious areas are in need of a rework, but it doesn't need to get a full rework again, just key areas need attention. SB Summoner was the worst though, without question. Bahamut should never return to how he functioned in that expansion.

Some of the things that I dislike:

1) Dreadwyrm Trance should be the same button as Summon Bahamut! It would make it a bit more cohese with how Demi-Phoenix is summoned, and would save a keybind.

3) Adding to the point above, the Dreadwyrm trance itself (the 12-ish seconds before Bahamut) feels out of place at this rate. Again, I think cohesion with how the Demi is summoned is a plus.

Agreed. This is a common complaint. There is a downside to this though. You get punished if you can't use Trance at the right time. Ostensibly this is why we have the 55s cooldown, but I'm not married to that number change. This is a big issue with Summoner now compared to all of its prior iterations, and one of the turnoffs from the job for prior expansion mains. One of the few upsides to DWT as it exists now is that it still lets us flex Bahamut around in that manner, and it shouldn't be understated how useful that is in content with a lot of downtime like E12 Normal or Savage. I've popped Trance to get it cycling before your movement is locked during the Relativity phases and it is worth it every single time. That was one of the reasons I loved HW Summoner and also despised SB Summoner. SB Pets would disrupt the cycle.

4) Why 2 Egi assaults when they achieve the same potency single target? Wouldn't be better to have just 01 action with 4 charges?

The actions change based on pet. Ifrit's just happen to be the most basic on single targets, though notably his EA2 can be executed on a target that's about to disappear and still get a Further Ruin proc even if the action itself ghosts. Titan has better AoE on EA2 than Garuda, who has better AoE compared to Ifrit in general. Ifrit is better than either at two targets or less based on autos. If pet swaps were cleaner using them as part of the core rotation would be viable. oGCD EAs made Titan Shield viable. The fact it's gated by 2 GCDs is what makes it useless outside of pre-planned situations. I would assume this is all getting thrown out despite being functional. Mostly because the main thing gating Egi Glamour is the differences in function and area shape between all of these actions.

5) Aetherflow feels completely disconnected to the job at this rate... When we are so focused on going through the Trances and the Demis, and managing Further Ruin stacks and Egi assault stacks... Might as well just give Fester and Painflare 2 charges and bake Energy Drain's damage into them.

To me, the solution is to return Aetherflow back into the kit. This solves your other issue with Fester/Painflare as well. Use it to get Aetherflow stacks as well as access Trance (which would get reduced to a 20s cooldown) as before. This also means we can use Energy Drain/Siphon as low level versions of Fester/Painflare which get upgraded out of existence, which would save a button.

6) Kind of a forgotten subject... But why Physick can't get a trait to scale with Int instead, post level 30, so we can finally use it to something? It wouldn't be as good as Vercure or even Curing Waltz, but can help you live on a tight situation.

It's literally because Yoshi-P and other class design teams think it shouldn't be viable on Summoner. This has been stated in multiple interviews over the years and isn't likely to change. That said, it does have a niche use. LB generation during downtime. Taking any action that heals HP while the boss is away still generates bar. It was even better in Stormblood because healing a target at low health mid-combat was actually viable in some speedruns (it would give you extra bar for the same reasons mitigating lethal damage did). As it is now? It's basically a shoddier Meditate for rDPS.

7) This is just more of a wishful thinking... Regarding what we have now. Phoenix works the same way as Bahamut (8 gcds, 2 enkindles)... just using different buttons. I wish Phoenix was more distinct in that regard.

To me it's Bahamut that feels outdated. I get the complaint on their similarities though. By the numbers they are apart from Everlasting flight adding in a tiny delay. I think Phoenix is fine, but I'd like Bahamut to get a glow up by making him enhance our Aetherflow actions Fester/Painflare during his phase only. This achieves the Wyrmwave feel of Stormblood without being god awful to play with if you need to use him while moving for any reason. I would expect numbers changes here, and maybe AI changes too. I doubt spell-triggered autos are going away, but I hope a Heel AI overhaul is coming. Egis behave in the exact same way till you use the Place command or have them start auto-attacking something to death.

8) Further Ruin deserved a gauge of its own.

Eh, the buff stack bar is fine, but I get this. I don't think it's worth worrying about given Ruin IV is likely to be reworked alongside the Egi rework in 6.0.

[Raikai]

Thanks for the polite reply! Usuall when I post something like "Hm, I don't like how this job works because ot X, Y..." I'm met with a lot of vitriol around these forums. It's refreshing to see someone wanting to discuss in a polite way.

About the EAs, make sense... When I try to roll SMN, is mostly using Ifrit, as I prefer to either tank or heal when going 4-mans. I don't remember details about why, but I do remember finding EA's much better during the time they were oGCDs.

I actually never thought of Physick to build limit break gauge, lol. But in the end if this is such a marginal use, and they don't want it to be viable to begin with, why not just nuke the spell already? Maybe because they don't have means to do so without removing from ACN (as it's a healer role pre-30)? I wonder if they'll go forward with separating SCH and SMN for EW. They would probably have to create a new healer class to precede SCH and shift ACN to a dpser... I wonder if they consider this worth the effort, since the whole "class" concept is something quite outdated for how the game changed across the years.

Now that you mentioned, yeah I agree that is the Bahamut's presentation that feels outdated compared to Phoenix. With the latter you get old spells converted into these amazing fire-based ones. Visually making you look like as in a trance possessed by the Primal you summoned. Dreadwyrm trance (or the summon itself) doesn't achieve this cool transformation, other than letting you use Deathflare one time.

One thing, if Egis stay as a regular pet after the rework, I hope the Egi-Glamour is not just 2 new colors of Carbuncle. As much as I love those little things, I think they are quite low effort, as they are just recolors. I'd also love to see other glams... We already have ingame models for other Egis... But yeah, pulling from your EA points, it would be really weird to see, for example, Ramuh-Egi using Garuda's wind abilities, coming to think about it.

[juicybug]

I like the way summoner works for the most part, my biggest complaint (bc i like the rotation overall it has a good flow but could be improved)

The pet UI needs an overhaul and there needs to be more pet glams to skin over the summons. Ones based from the Aeons/Espers/Summons/GFs from other FF titles.

What I suggest.
Ifirt > should have been a Hellhound medium sized avatar, rather than a small two armed spirit/red carby. Hellhound would be about to stomach height on tall Hyur male.
Garuda > a Green avian with feathers and large wingspan the size of small setting on demi-bahamut.
And get rid of Titan or add a new summon like a Ramuh based one, and make it a set of dark shroud fairies. Like tiny magus sisters, but lightning themed.
Add Shiva summon, one that closely resembles her art, no bigger than max height elezen male if you include her crown.
Demi- Bahamut can stay as it is, although I do with for alternate skins from other FF titles.

I don't like the egi skins, or how lack-luster they feel. Visually, I ignore them and just focus on the demi-summons who are really the only ones that are visually more inline with a "summoner".

[Raikai]

I like the way summoner works for the most part, my biggest complaint (bc i like the rotation overall it has a good flow but could be improved)

The pet UI needs an overhaul and there needs to be more pet glams to skin over the summons. Ones based from the Aeons/Espers/Summons/GFs from other FF titles.

What I suggest.
Ifirt > should have been a Hellhound medium sized avatar, rather than a small two armed spirit/red carby. Hellhound would be about to stomach height on tall Hyur male.
Garuda > a Green avian with feathers and large wingspan the size of small setting on demi-bahamut.
And get rid of Titan or add a new summon like a Ramuh based one, and make it a set of dark shroud fairies. Like tiny magus sisters, but lightning themed.
Add Shiva summon, one that closely resembles her art, no bigger than max height elezen male if you include her crown.
Demi- Bahamut can stay as it is, although I do with for alternate skins from other FF titles.

I don't like the egi skins, or how lack-luster they feel. Visually, I ignore them and just focus on the demi-summons who are really the only ones that are visually more inline with a "summoner".

The thing you're asking is actually Demi-Summons, a they are meant to be a more "complete", or bigger, representation of the creature. The Egis, as the very name suggests, is an effigy version of a Primal, it's meant to be small and simplistic in its design.

It would be interesting if they somehow let us cosmetically customize the Trances... Since elemental damage doesn't matter anyways, you could have the default Bahamut / Phoenix and be able to glam them to available options, and the Enkindle would visually change accordingly. This would fulfill that classic summoner fantasy without adding more trance stages.

While still offering options to glam the egis themselves as well.

Also maybe it's time to change SMN LB3 to be huge summon, like Leviathan or Alexander... The current one screams more "wyrm-mage" than Summoner.

[AceofRains]

With Summoner I would

-Prefer they keep the Egi, however bind it to the Summoner as an animation rather than a pet.
-Be inclusive of all 6 Elements. Possibly using combinations like Mudra to channel different Egi like Bismarck or Sophia.
-Use the elements to form a cohesive rotation.
-Repurpose Physick ffs.
-Add Odin and Alexander as Demi-summons.
-An Avatar state that allows you to become a version of a primal, similar to this new Repear fusion.

[abesut]

Always loved the SMN job.

But FF14 SMN feels more like playing a discount-warlock from WoW with identity issues.

Got my egis glamoured since carbuncle look more.. 'whole' and not just floating crystals.

But our pet is essentially just a dot made alive, with 2 pet abilities that feels detached from its own petbar. And only used to get insta-cast Ruin 4.
Not to mention that they feel clunky

2 dots in form of diseases (Confused /stare)

The 2 stances feels miss-matched in the sense;
- DWT doesnt summon bahamut or morph existing spells into a more bahamut like theme, but phoenix stance does all of the above +a buff. Feels rather odd, and like playing a job that has been made with glue, sciccors and duck tape. No offense to the devs.

I don't think I need to mention our whole rotation, with a length that makes LB3 build-up seem fast.

I hope they make DWT summon bahamut the same way when we summon phoenix and morph existing spells into what would match bahamut theme-wise.
.. and scrap the rest in turn of more summon-themed spells, that change depending on what summon/egi is active at the moment,
Also, for the love of the gods give us some new summons please. Wouldnt mind if we had garuda/leviathan as our aoe dps, ifrit/ramuh as single target, and titan/shiva as support pets with more focus on buff/debuff.

Like stated before, aetherflow feels totally detached from the job, and only used to Fester our 2 dots.

all in all, it feels like summoner atm is a job that has been the last one to draw spells from the hat of stuff.

just my 2 gil........ wait what? we got an actual healing spell..?? /Confused

[Lilyth]

After reading some comments I need to point out that having DWT insta summon Bahamut like FBT does is a terrible idea considering how SMN works at the moment.
Having DWT separated from Bahamut allow us summoners to actually have an opener. We can pop trance early, already putting it on cooldown for the incoming Phoenix, and use all of our pet actions before summoning Bahamut without feeling we're holding anything back. Nothing worse than coming out of a long transition with Phoenix, 2 EA charges, Ekindle and Devotion all off CD and having to wait for the egi to use all of those commands before using our main cooldown.

Granted, this is a know issue with SMN atm where egis and demis do not work well with eachother. Unless they completely rework how they both interact, I'd rather have Baha and DWTrance separated.

PS: Also, I like that both trances have their unique identities instead of just being a copy-paste version of eachother. I don't think we need the Selene/Eos treatment happening to SMNs as well.

[Rollout]

Honestly, I say one of the issues with Summoner is the fact that it and Scholar still share the same base class. We have a new class that Scholar can be based on, thanks to Alphinaud--Academician.
Separate the two classes entirely, with Academician being focused on DoTs and healing, and giving new players the opportunity to play another healer besides Conjurer in sub-30 content.
When they become Scholars, they begin to learn shielding-focused spells, and the fairy appears as a part of their character model, hovering over your shoulder and joining them for healing actions.
Any abilities that originally came from your fairies are still cast by them, but are geographically cast from you, so no more having to worry about where your fairy is.

Arcanist can be remade to focus more on your Carbuncle. Make Carbuncle a part of your character model when your weapon is drawn and make your GCD actions come directly from Carby.
Once you become a Summoner, Carby will still stick with you as your basic means of attack, but the Egis take the form of either powerful GCDs with their own cooldowns or powerful oGCDs, appearing for their attack and then leaving, akin to classic FF summons.
Given how Enkindle currently works, change it from making your pet do a powerful attack to instead making the next Egi-related attack summon a Demi-Primal for a more powerful version of that attack.
For whatever Egi-related actions there are, give Summoners a special menu where they can assign whatever Primal they've already defeated as an Egi to these actions, so players are free to customize as they see fit.
Change Dreadwyrm Trance into Elder Trance I and Firebird Trance into Elder Trance II, with you being able to assign any Elder Primal you've defeated to them, with Bahamut and Phoenix being token ones given for free when the skills are unlocked.
Whatever Elder Primal you do summon, Carby changes into them and your GCDs gets changed slightly to reflect their attacks, like Alexander's being more holy based, Odin's being more darkness based and so on.

This will likely never happen, because such an extensive rework would require, not only extra resources for a single job, but a lot of changes to the job's quests, along with Academician requiring quests as well.
But it's just something that I feel would make the two jobs feel more cohesive and more appropriate to their designs.