Thread: Fix Summoner Once and For All in 6.0 Please!

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

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Well as before, we are always going to agree to disagree. I preferred 4.0 over 3.0. I was trying to make a good reply but it's taking to long for a decent conversation and I've got things to do lol. I agree with Yoshi-P in that SMN has become bloated with mechanics and adding new pets or Trance isn't going to work My idea for Tempus Odin/Alex isn't a pet. It's a flashy, burst damage spell in the shape and animation of a Summon, that one and done people in the community have been asking for. If fact it could summon, sit there while you charge up, then "Enkindle" / desummon. SMN's playstyle has always been a buildup and payoff, that is till recently. 3.0 had Fester + Fester + Fester = DWT, 4.0 was (Fester + Fester + Fester = DWT) + (Fester + Fester + Fester = DWT) = Demi Bahamut. 5.0 is Trance > Trance = ??? Does that make sense? I don't think we need a longer rotation but we need a goal at the end. I also think a charge up cast would be something unique to the game, something we haven't seen yet.

As for the Bait.... I would like to see a mage job that used the elemental wheel as a rotation and what I mean by making that into SMN (which I don't). Summon Egi, EA + EA + Enkindle adds buff for next element. Garuda adds Earth Buff > Titan adds Lightning > Ramuh adds Water > Leviathan adds Fire > Ifrit adds Ice > Shiva adds Wind. After all six Light > Dark unlock. Maybe Geo in 7.0?

I loved Stormblood Summoner (even if I couldn't stand how punishing death was in prog). I love Phoenix....
I detest SMN in its current state. I keep trying to love it. But with the add to egi-assaults I've binned SMN for months. Upgrade its gear, try to learn it > Hate it > Bin it > repeat this whole expansion.

I've seen people say its in its best place ever, I've seen people hate it too.

The egi's being an npc always felt weird, having played it in every final fantasy, but having also played wow it made sense. It had its GCD, it did its shit, We told it to use its Nuke. Repeat.

The dots honestly feel better now then they did, because trance allows an easy refresh... When 5.0 came and they said summoner was getting a change that would improve it massively, I honestly thought it was lowering the CD to 30s for the dots so Summoner would be focusing on trance and not on the dots.. Instead we got active control of the egis... which are massively unresponsive/ghosting (Bahamut also guilty of this) Fishing for Ruin 4 by Egi-Assaults that have a 1/2 chance of not happening makes summoner just feel awful to me.

I miss playing summoner. I was forced to rdm most of SB, but when I wasn't with the static I was on SMN. It was my 2nd 80 and by the time I capped....change hit... I was feeling wth did you do to my class SE.
Do I want Egi-glams? Sure. I'd be estatic if we got diamond and obsidian at least XD
What I really want, is SMN to be either a pet class where we're basically the baton to tell the pet what to do the whole time or a dot class with an npc pet we dont focus on besides the random enkindle/trance ect and join the 1+2+3, 1+2+3, 1+2+3+4 club

Originally Posted by Asheilin

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The primary reason I don't miss Stormblood Summoner is because the lockouts and oGCD Wyrmwaves forced you to hold and burn cooldowns in a terrible manner to accommodate a shoddily designed but mathematically necessary rotation. It felt like pure developer hatred for the way Heavensward tore up their terrible idea for DWT and Aethertrail. The only class with a worse rotation than it from a design standpoint was Machinist. Current Summoner isn't even remotely close to that. It also isn't nearly as punishing. There is no difference between Phoenix and Bahamut numerically or mechanically. Their actual differences lie in Trances, where DWT is 400 potency less than FBT once you do the math, plus the cast time differences; I believe potency difference is even less on AoE (Outburst is good). Sure, you're encouraged to save Ruin IVs for Bahamut, but it is not a big deal. Using Ruin II to get the wyrmwaves right is still a DPS gain, and only matters for the last two to three GCDs you use during Bahamut. Tri-Disaster and Devotion work exactly the same as they did in Stormblood. I dislike both for the same reasons I hated Summoner in Stormblood. Same issues. Lesser Degree.

Overall, moving away from what remains of Stormblood's bad decisions, merging stuff down, and bringing back Aetherflow so Trance can be flexed again solves every issue we have. Do that and Summoner doesn't need any more major changes in its rotation. It just needs pets to function properly.

SMN was my main in SB, but ShB's playstyle ruined it for me... Before was strict, yeah it was, but at least it wasn't the disorganized mess that it is right now. Every major patch I try to get back to it, but the job feels bad to me personally. I can't even find a cohesive way to set my keybinds, because the actions feel so disconnected.

Some of the things that I dislike:

1) Dreadwyrm Trance should be the same button as Summon Bahamut! It would make it a bit more cohese with how Demi-Phoenix is summoned, and would save a keybind.

3) Adding to the point above, the Dreadwyrm trance itself (the 12-ish seconds before Bahamut) feels out of place at this rate. Again, I think cohesion with how the Demi is summoned is a plus.

4) Why 2 Egi assaults when they achieve the same potency single target? Wouldn't be better to have just 01 action with 4 charges?

5) Aetherflow feels completely disconnected to the job at this rate... When we are so focused on going through the Trances and the Demis, and managing Further Ruin stacks and Egi assault stacks... Might as well just give Fester and Painflare 2 charges and bake Energy Drain's damage into them.

6) Kind of a forgotten subject... But why Physick can't get a trait to scale with Int instead, post level 30, so we can finally use it to something? It wouldn't be as good as Vercure or even Curing Waltz, but can help you live on a tight situation.

7) This is just more of a wishful thinking... Regarding what we have now. Phoenix works the same way as Bahamut (8 gcds, 2 enkindles)... just using different buttons. I wish Phoenix was more distinct in that regard.

8) Further Ruin deserved a gauge of its own.

Originally Posted by Raikai

SMN was my main in SB, but ShB's playstyle ruined it for me... Before was strict, yeah it was, but at least it wasn't the disorganized mess that it is right now. Every major patch I try to get back to it, but the job feels bad to me personally. I can't even find a cohesive way to set my keybinds, because the actions feel so disconnected.

My Keybinds for Summoner look like this:


I think they're fairly intuitive, but I know that my setup isn't remotely like the default WASD controls + CTRL/ALT/SHIFT + 1 through 0. I'd clump things differently on a controller just to account for cross-hotbar swapping.

The problems Summoner has right now are like Monk's post-trim-down. Rotation's simple and functional, but the synergy and interaction between elements of the kit is practically non-existent. Obvious areas are in need of a rework, but it doesn't need to get a full rework again, just key areas need attention. SB Summoner was the worst though, without question. Bahamut should never return to how he functioned in that expansion.

Originally Posted by Raikai

Some of the things that I dislike:

1) Dreadwyrm Trance should be the same button as Summon Bahamut! It would make it a bit more cohese with how Demi-Phoenix is summoned, and would save a keybind.

3) Adding to the point above, the Dreadwyrm trance itself (the 12-ish seconds before Bahamut) feels out of place at this rate. Again, I think cohesion with how the Demi is summoned is a plus.

Agreed. This is a common complaint. There is a downside to this though. You get punished if you can't use Trance at the right time. Ostensibly this is why we have the 55s cooldown, but I'm not married to that number change. This is a big issue with Summoner now compared to all of its prior iterations, and one of the turnoffs from the job for prior expansion mains. One of the few upsides to DWT as it exists now is that it still lets us flex Bahamut around in that manner, and it shouldn't be understated how useful that is in content with a lot of downtime like E12 Normal or Savage. I've popped Trance to get it cycling before your movement is locked during the Relativity phases and it is worth it every single time. That was one of the reasons I loved HW Summoner and also despised SB Summoner. SB Pets would disrupt the cycle.

Originally Posted by Raikai

4) Why 2 Egi assaults when they achieve the same potency single target? Wouldn't be better to have just 01 action with 4 charges?

The actions change based on pet. Ifrit's just happen to be the most basic on single targets, though notably his EA2 can be executed on a target that's about to disappear and still get a Further Ruin proc even if the action itself ghosts. Titan has better AoE on EA2 than Garuda, who has better AoE compared to Ifrit in general. Ifrit is better than either at two targets or less based on autos. If pet swaps were cleaner using them as part of the core rotation would be viable. oGCD EAs made Titan Shield viable. The fact it's gated by 2 GCDs is what makes it useless outside of pre-planned situations. I would assume this is all getting thrown out despite being functional. Mostly because the main thing gating Egi Glamour is the differences in function and area shape between all of these actions.

Originally Posted by Raikai

5) Aetherflow feels completely disconnected to the job at this rate... When we are so focused on going through the Trances and the Demis, and managing Further Ruin stacks and Egi assault stacks... Might as well just give Fester and Painflare 2 charges and bake Energy Drain's damage into them.

To me, the solution is to return Aetherflow back into the kit. This solves your other issue with Fester/Painflare as well. Use it to get Aetherflow stacks as well as access Trance (which would get reduced to a 20s cooldown) as before. This also means we can use Energy Drain/Siphon as low level versions of Fester/Painflare which get upgraded out of existence, which would save a button.

Originally Posted by Raikai

6) Kind of a forgotten subject... But why Physick can't get a trait to scale with Int instead, post level 30, so we can finally use it to something? It wouldn't be as good as Vercure or even Curing Waltz, but can help you live on a tight situation.

It's literally because Yoshi-P and other class design teams think it shouldn't be viable on Summoner. This has been stated in multiple interviews over the years and isn't likely to change. That said, it does have a niche use. LB generation during downtime. Taking any action that heals HP while the boss is away still generates bar. It was even better in Stormblood because healing a target at low health mid-combat was actually viable in some speedruns (it would give you extra bar for the same reasons mitigating lethal damage did). As it is now? It's basically a shoddier Meditate for rDPS.

Originally Posted by Raikai

7) This is just more of a wishful thinking... Regarding what we have now. Phoenix works the same way as Bahamut (8 gcds, 2 enkindles)... just using different buttons. I wish Phoenix was more distinct in that regard.

To me it's Bahamut that feels outdated. I get the complaint on their similarities though. By the numbers they are apart from Everlasting flight adding in a tiny delay. I think Phoenix is fine, but I'd like Bahamut to get a glow up by making him enhance our Aetherflow actions Fester/Painflare during his phase only. This achieves the Wyrmwave feel of Stormblood without being god awful to play with if you need to use him while moving for any reason. I would expect numbers changes here, and maybe AI changes too. I doubt spell-triggered autos are going away, but I hope a Heel AI overhaul is coming. Egis behave in the exact same way till you use the Place command or have them start auto-attacking something to death.

Originally Posted by Raikai

8) Further Ruin deserved a gauge of its own.

Eh, the buff stack bar is fine, but I get this. I don't think it's worth worrying about given Ruin IV is likely to be reworked alongside the Egi rework in 6.0.

Thanks for the polite reply! Usuall when I post something like "Hm, I don't like how this job works because ot X, Y..." I'm met with a lot of vitriol around these forums. It's refreshing to see someone wanting to discuss in a polite way.

About the EAs, make sense... When I try to roll SMN, is mostly using Ifrit, as I prefer to either tank or heal when going 4-mans. I don't remember details about why, but I do remember finding EA's much better during the time they were oGCDs.

I actually never thought of Physick to build limit break gauge, lol. But in the end if this is such a marginal use, and they don't want it to be viable to begin with, why not just nuke the spell already? Maybe because they don't have means to do so without removing from ACN (as it's a healer role pre-30)? I wonder if they'll go forward with separating SCH and SMN for EW. They would probably have to create a new healer class to precede SCH and shift ACN to a dpser... I wonder if they consider this worth the effort, since the whole "class" concept is something quite outdated for how the game changed across the years.

Now that you mentioned, yeah I agree that is the Bahamut's presentation that feels outdated compared to Phoenix. With the latter you get old spells converted into these amazing fire-based ones. Visually making you look like as in a trance possessed by the Primal you summoned. Dreadwyrm trance (or the summon itself) doesn't achieve this cool transformation, other than letting you use Deathflare one time.

One thing, if Egis stay as a regular pet after the rework, I hope the Egi-Glamour is not just 2 new colors of Carbuncle. As much as I love those little things, I think they are quite low effort, as they are just recolors. I'd also love to see other glams... We already have ingame models for other Egis... But yeah, pulling from your EA points, it would be really weird to see, for example, Ramuh-Egi using Garuda's wind abilities, coming to think about it.

Originally Posted by juicybug

I like the way summoner works for the most part, my biggest complaint (bc i like the rotation overall it has a good flow but could be improved)

The pet UI needs an overhaul and there needs to be more pet glams to skin over the summons. Ones based from the Aeons/Espers/Summons/GFs from other FF titles.

What I suggest.
Ifirt > should have been a Hellhound medium sized avatar, rather than a small two armed spirit/red carby. Hellhound would be about to stomach height on tall Hyur male.
Garuda > a Green avian with feathers and large wingspan the size of small setting on demi-bahamut.
And get rid of Titan or add a new summon like a Ramuh based one, and make it a set of dark shroud fairies. Like tiny magus sisters, but lightning themed.
Add Shiva summon, one that closely resembles her art, no bigger than max height elezen male if you include her crown.
Demi- Bahamut can stay as it is, although I do with for alternate skins from other FF titles.

I don't like the egi skins, or how lack-luster they feel. Visually, I ignore them and just focus on the demi-summons who are really the only ones that are visually more inline with a "summoner".

The thing you're asking is actually Demi-Summons, a they are meant to be a more "complete", or bigger, representation of the creature. The Egis, as the very name suggests, is an effigy version of a Primal, it's meant to be small and simplistic in its design.

It would be interesting if they somehow let us cosmetically customize the Trances... Since elemental damage doesn't matter anyways, you could have the default Bahamut / Phoenix and be able to glam them to available options, and the Enkindle would visually change accordingly. This would fulfill that classic summoner fantasy without adding more trance stages.

While still offering options to glam the egis themselves as well.

Also maybe it's time to change SMN LB3 to be huge summon, like Leviathan or Alexander... The current one screams more "wyrm-mage" than Summoner.