The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[Payotz]

I don´t think it lacks of creativity. It´s more like they put more stuff into those alliance raids, because you´ve a big amount of players and no enrage mechanics. You can´t force perfectly timed mechanics and dps from a bunch of random players who comes together via finder. You don´t even need a decent strategy or uptime, you just play it down. Such stuff would not work in savage and that´s why SE probably focuses more on precise and static gameplay in such raids. And overall it´s still "once seen and it´s going to be easy". (The endboss in castrum might be a good example atleast for needed dps. But as we see, too many ppl still failing to beat the beastmaster. But hey, it´s a mechanic where the players decide who´s going to do that, not the RNG.)

This tier's mechanics have been stale, and the only interesting mechanic that had potential (E12 Primals) is just a simplified Chariot/Dynamo + Cardinals/Intercardinals. It's definitely a bad thing when a static just instinctively form clock group in a BLIND prog without seeing mechanics, due to how predictable the entire tier is.

The fact that Delub Savage exists means that there's precedent in having those mechs actually function in an environment like Savage. (I fully believe that Delub Savage is much MUCH harder than current Savage. It makes current Savage look like an EX in comparison). I fully believe that they should add those mechanics in Savage, and they honestly shouldn't be scared of the backlash LR had back when Verse was relevant. It was ass to pug, but looking back, it was honestly unforgettable as a mechanic. I want more of that mech rather than "Iron Chariot v356".

They should get ride of their pattern "aoe-mechanic-tb-aoe-mechanic-tb etc..." and design every boss from ground up different. More double / triple bosses or boss + add and not just an addphase would be welcome too.
They should nerf / rework a bunch of tools of all classes. TB are a perfect example. You invul them up to 3 times per fight, maybe even 4. The dog is the only one where a real tankswap is needed thx to the debuffs. The TB´s in E12s force a lot of defs, but nothing is coming after that. No hardhitting boss, no def-rotation, no permanent tank swaps every minute to assist the healer, nothing. It´s just not needed. I play WAR on another char and it´s like "Don´t worry healer, i´m going to invul and healing myself after the TB!". Or you´ve PLD who easily use his invul to eat every mechanic without any damage debuff. On top of that, each defs on tanks became pretty much the same. I would like to see someone coming up like "Let DRK taking this tankbuster, it´s magical damage!"

Like I said, this tier's been bleh in terms of raid mechanic creativity. Even Verse was a lot more creative than this tier. E8S blows mostly every fight in this tier out of the water. That's why I'm hoping that mechanics in other content like 24 mans, Delub and EX find its way into Savage.

Bard has a cleanse, but for what? Debuffs has become so rare and it has only a one time use. You can´t really assist the healer with it.
Ranges has a silence, why does tanks have a silence? They made use of double silence in E8s addphase, but that´s it. It´s actually probably one of the better mechanics since it was a dps check and you needed those stuns and silent abilites.

Yeah it sucks. Which is why I really want more raid mechanics that can be solved by a Physical Ranged. They have a lot of CC, why not have Physical Ranged use it on add phase. etc....
I sound like a broken record at this point.

Limit break is a cool thing, but heal LB3 is just broken and saves more than enough runs which should´ve ended at some point. I´ve done like 100 E6s runs and only like 5 of them were clean. The most went down at the last mechanic with the DD tethers, but np, one heal survived, gg! Tank LB3 is pretty much non existent unless fights like alex or WoL force its one time use for whatever reason. DD LB3 is fine if you miss that 1% damage, but it´s getting useless pretty fast and destroys the rotation of the DPS pretty much.

Honestly. We as a group abuse the living hell out of Tank LB3. I don't think it's an issue at all. It's another tool that people can use in all content (Hell I've even used Tank LB in a dungeon when the DPS is low), and removing it would just tear out another piece of this game. LB is fine as it is. If LB cheese was still a thing I would see it as broken(even though it actually took a lot of planning and execution to do), but right now it's fine.

And the list goes on. We´ve too much tools which are not forced to be used often enough or too strong tools which gets pretty much abused to play around a handful of mechanics or issues a class could have without a decent build. The rest are some medigation tools to survive big aoe´s, which are always at the same point in the fight. Here again, once seen, press the button.

Yeah I agree. We definitely need more mechanics that use tools. Add that to ranged physical's responsibilities. Give Ranged something to do lol.

EDIT: Btw i would like to see stuff like castrum as 8-man savage content. To play a complete dungeon with 4-5 bosses, some hardhitting trashgroups, puzzles and no timer would bring more enjoyment than the current system to me.

Castrum legit feels more like a raid to me than Savage. It's definitely a lot more interesting than the current system.
I don't really know if they'll bring it back though considering a lot of people hated going through trash that they pretty much got rid of it completely back in SB.

[Kabooa]

I don't really know if they'll bring it back though considering a lot of people hated going through trash that they pretty much got rid of it completely back in SB.

Trash without reward is basically pointless.

What's the point of having time filler mobs that have nothing to do with the encounter, either directly (Enemies grant a buff for example) or indirectly (Enemies drop a component used to craft something useful)?

Given the hard time limit players get to complete the instance, those enemies can stay gone. The novelty of their presence wears off quickly, even the more "interesting" fights.

[ssunny2008]

Trash without reward is basically pointless.

What's the point of having time filler mobs that have nothing to do with the encounter, either directly (Enemies grant a buff for example) or indirectly (Enemies drop a component used to craft something useful)?

Given the hard time limit players get to complete the instance, those enemies can stay gone. The novelty of their presence wears off quickly, even the more "interesting" fights.

Having just trash as you have as alex raids is pointless yeah, but it´s another thing if you´ve complete raids like you´ve in other games where you move from boss to boss and between them you might solve some puzzles or actually those puzzles are part of the next boss. Some stuff could grant an extra chest or while activating something you might be able to summon a bonus boss which is harder then the endboss of the raid. It would even be easier to split the endboss in its 2 phases and more advanced mechanics + double loot and all that WITHOUT a timer which would force you to play the first phase again and again. The overall atmosphere would be much better than this in and out jumping from boss to boss too. (And rewards are not the only thing some ppl playing for.)

[Kabooa]

Having just trash as you have as alex raids is pointless yeah, but it´s another thing if you´ve complete raids like you´ve in other games where you move from boss to boss and between them you might solve some puzzles or actually those puzzles are part of the next boss. Some stuff could grant an extra chest or while activating something you might be able to summon a bonus boss which is harder then the endboss of the raid. It would even be easier to split the endboss in its 2 phases and more advanced mechanics + double loot and all that WITHOUT a timer which would force you to play the first phase again and again. The overall atmosphere would be much better than this in and out jumping from boss to boss too. (And rewards are not the only thing some ppl playing for.)

I've played those games. I reckon I've probably played more of them than most people on these forums, and for longer.

The trash gets tiresome. The puzzles are solved, so doing them again brings no enjoyment. The 15 minute trek from entrance to boss wears on you as you do it over and over.

There's only been one instance where this has been somewhat engaging in the past two decades I've been in the scene, and it was in Aion and Dark Poeta. (Oh, and it was a hard time limit there too, so not having a timer is irrelevant). Other examples in other games must obviously exist, but even I can't possibly play everything.

But by all means, go put together a team of synced 50 non-Blus and do Binding Coil every week.

Let me know how much enjoyment you get out of those atmospheric romps after the tenth time.

[ssunny2008]

The 15 minute trek from entrance to boss wears on you as you do it over and over.

Well a bunch of games handled it with portzones right in front of the boss as you´ve in alliance raids here.

The trash gets tiresome. The puzzles are solved, so doing them again brings no enjoyment.

Of course such puzzles won´t be something new once you´ve solved that. But it´s the same with any boss out there. You did it, you know what´s coming and in kind of FF14 it´s really static. Nevertheless... playing a full raid with 4-7 bosses and bosses where the first part is actually the way to him could be somehow more interesting than just porting directly into them.

But by all means, go put together a team of synced 50 non-Blus and do Binding Coil every week.

Let me know how much enjoyment you get out of those atmospheric romps after the tenth time.

I could, but i won´t. It´s definately not a good design there. Castrum and Delubrum are way more special and interesting in this way. Both just lack on more challenging aspects. Sadly i wasn´t able to play the 48 mode yet since the most seem to be feared or somehow uninterested to doing it.

[Kabooa]

Castrum and Delubrum are way more special and interesting in this way. Both just lack on more challenging aspects. Sadly i wasn´t able to play the 48 mode yet since the most seem to be feared or somehow uninterested to doing it.

There are discords for it. I'd look into those.

[Jirah]

I've played those games. I reckon I've probably played more of them than most people on these forums, and for longer.

The trash gets tiresome. The puzzles are solved, so doing them again brings no enjoyment. The 15 minute trek from entrance to boss wears on you as you do it over and over.

ignore the obvious implications that have nothing to do with the topic but i dont think the best solution is to make them more boring, and i dont even recalling any instance of recent memory pulling off full on "puzzles" in the mix for people to be down on it so much when discussing substance in instances.

[ssunny2008]

Yeah I agree. We definitely need more mechanics that use tools. Add that to ranged physical's responsibilities. Give Ranged something to do lol.

I can just remember an add-boss of another game.

- A boss + 2 caster adds + damage adds + a heal add.
- The boss stacked a tankdebuff so tanks had to switch at X stacks. He set a mark on a random party member. In such cases the tank needed to taunt him, otherwise an aoe would´ve spread through the whole group. The correct use of only 3 defs were very important.
- For the adds you needed tons of damage. The current OT had to bind the damage adds until he had to take the boss. Ofc tanks had a single and a multi taunt for such situations. Healer needed to be focused down meanwhile you had to split in 2 groups to interrupt the casters, because their cast was a raidwide dot which was like insta-wipe. If someone used interruption, the caster wasn´t able to cast again for some seconds and if the same player would´ve used the interruption again, he died. So you needed a rotation, even the tanks had to interupt them and melees couldn´t even use a dash, because it did the same as the interupt skill but the add was able to cast instant again.
- On top of that you had some random aoes or grenades on different players so even the healer had to heal, heal, heal. Only 1 rezz per bossfight was a thing too.
- The last x% of the boss was a hard dps check to burst him down, because he had a softenrage with permanent raidwide damage which hurt harder with every tick.

I know it´s another game, but it made use of everything. Forced the players to go for priorities with any skills, denied even some "QoL" skills from melees. The tankstance wasn´t a hardlock on adds, you had to do damage and top DPS needed to use their aggro-reduce abilites. Random damage could happen anywhere, both tanks had a lot to do as much as the dps and healer. Nothing was so expectable like "aoe here, safezone there, oh 2nd phase addphase, etc." And that was just one boss from a bunch of others, but all of them were unique and in their own "environment". Some mechanics were based on the boss health, but you had way more possibilities to play and to adjust if you knew your class.

I really miss those stuff in FF14. Of course you had a plan, but next to that you had to react on a lot of income and things did even changed based on the classes you had in the raid. Tanks for example were very different in their core as much as healer. And even if someone died too early the group was able to finish the fight with enough dps and by pushing everything out of the classes what was actually possible. Once me and a heal did the last 5% as duo because the other 6 party members died in the last big mechanic. We used everything and switched with the boss aggro thx to the given tools on the classes. Such stuff is not possible here. If 1 players dies right before mechanic X, it´s a wipe. No matter how good the others are playing or decent the dps is. DD´s can´t even tank a boss for like 10s without getting two-shotted.