The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[ssunny2008]

Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design.

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.
Imagine we would´ve some skilltrees to prepare for differen bosses aka burst for dps checks, better DoTs for downtimes or multiple adds/bosses.
I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design, when nearly all subclasses play similar to each other and the whole class design is strict to make balancing easier / to hold the classes easy to cater every kind of player. It´s still MNK, BLM and RDM for me, who has atleast some uniqueness in their kit. It doesn´t matter how easy you can get used to it if train stuff at a dummy. Is just the base design which is different.

This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements

I get you, but isn´t that the real issue imo? The players obviously want their mobility to stay, otherwise you would still have casting times or whatever. You want that the raid is designed around that, but how? If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing. Not that i would be against it. I would welcome new bosses without the strict SE pattern, multiple bosses at once where a DPS has to kite one as long as the others focus on the rest, etc... but that´s obviously not possible. The casualization is real and SE is either uninspired and lazy or just follows the golden rule "don´t touch a running system". I would call it´s the 2nd part, maybe even both since every addon is going to be the same.
It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics." More freedom for the player combined with some unique class requirements would make a difference. Put new boss designs on top of that and the gameplay would probably be much better and more than that "1 kill enjoyment". (e.g. Castrum before the lootpatch)

[Payotz]

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.

But it does exist. It is impactful and deep gameplay design. Whether or not the game requires it to clear content is a different topic entirely, the most important part is that there's potential for improvement.
Again, the game is not forcing you to do positionals as a MNK either, but that doesn't mean it has no positionals. The bosses could have no positionals like Bozja, but that would not change that the job has positionals.
It's up to the player if they're gonna do positionals or not, and to that I reiterate my point that static rotations is much less decision making and more muscle memory than proc based jobs.
They both have depth, just that proc-based jobs are forced to think on the fly rather than static rotations and thus have more decision making.

I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design

And this is why we can't really argue about this objectively. This is a subjective argument all in all.

You want that the raid is designed around that, but how?

I've been giving out examples for the past few posts now. Let me get a snippet from my original post:

2.Bring back Mechanics that will benefit from a Ranged Physical handling it. Notable examples would be BJ/CC Superjump, O11S Panto baits, or maybe even just positioning, like painting the Siren on O6S, Taking a kind of Prey/Flare mechanic from the party, or just plain applying a heavy on an add like in T7. This will add a LOT more gameplay to Physical Ranged, add more responsibility to the phys ranged player and will also justify their mobility and a spot at the party aside from just a 1% buff that you can't control.

If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing.

And that's bad why? Physical ranged has been doing it ever since Coil up until O11S.
That demands a lot more skill for the physical ranged player because of their no positioning requirements and mobility.
Add more utility on top of that, like mitigation tools, resource tools and the role would have their depth back!
It would add a lot more gameplay and would be more preferable to gimmicky range requirements and a 1% DPS buff.

It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics."

I've been refuting your argument for giving up mobility and you've been ignoring my points for a while now.
Removing mobility will not work for ranged physicals
You know what would work? Click Me

[ssunny2008]

snip

I read your stuff, imagine i´ve even liked your "click me" post after it showed up. But i´m trying to get what might be SE´s big plan. Of course a lot of stuff could and SHOULD change. As i´ve even said, i´ve no issue with more and depth or even phys. range orientated mechanics. There is no bad thing with it.

The issue is, that SE goes the easy way to balance the classes and obviously wants to offer any content for everyone. They don´t go for much unique and different gameplay anymore. They force the classes into specific roles and those roles play pretty much similar to each other. Tanks got pretty much all the same. Healer work pretty much the same. Range work pretty much the same, especially BRD/DNC. Melees work the same next to MNK positionals and NIN´s ninjutsu. Only casters are not THAT similar to each other thx to BLM design and RDM range/melee combos. Do you agree on that or do you see that big of a difference i don´t?

Keep that in mind and look forward. We´ve 4 similar tanks, so MT/OT isn´t that big of a deal anymore or that 1 tank would be better at boss X, the other at boss Y. Endwalker brings a 4th healer, which was pretty obviously. So healers are splitted in cure/shield healers. Then we get a 5th melee class on top of that. (unexpected)
This means SE wants to force those 2 tanks, 2 melee, 1 caster , 1p.r. , 1 cure and 1 shield heal raidgroups. But they still want to go the way, that it doesn´t matter which class you play.

It doesn´t make sense to come up with raids which force that any specific class has some extra mechanics if you just look at what will come and what we already have. Is obviously nothing what SE still wants. They want it to be easy, static and strictly according to their own plan. It´s up to us to force SE to give us better raids, better mechanics, better class designs and to stop the route SE is going imo. I would have like 100 idea´s to make use of the mobility of phys. range., to force the OT to be more useful than eating one TB, to go away from DPS healers to actual heal-healers, and so on. I´m fully on your side with the stuff you requested, but sadly SE is ignorant or just want to cater more players in case for more business, otherwise we wouldn´t sit here and writing about such stuff.

[Payotz]

I read your stuff, imagine i´ve even liked your "click me" post after it showed up. But i´m trying to get what might be SE´s big plan.

I've seen an interview in Famitsu(that I can't actually find the source now due to me being in the workplace) that the endgoals is to have a "Second Life"-esque game where the player can actually pick up and play the game, and that it will have no drastic changes so that a player who's quit now can return 2 years from now and still play the game. They strive to have every job be playable and be able to clear content. I honestly don't like this plan at all(besides the every job being able to clear content part, to an extent, and I don't really know if their plan changed due to feedback or are they still bulldozing through it.

The issue is, that SE goes the easy way to balance the classes and obviously wants to offer any content for everyone. They don´t go for much unique and different gameplay anymore. They force the classes into specific roles and those roles play pretty much similar to each other. Tanks got pretty much all the same. Healer work pretty much the same. Range work pretty much the same, especially BRD/DNC. Melees work the same next to MNK positionals and NIN´s ninjutsu. Only casters are not THAT similar to each other thx to BLM design and RDM range/melee combos. Do you agree on that or do you see that big of a difference i don´t?

I do and the same time I don't. It's all in a case-by-case basis. The feeling that jobs under some of the roles feeling like they're the same is definitely there despite some minute differences among them.

Tank design, yes. They're all pretty much the same. The only thing that's different is GNB due to their core rotation.

Healers, yes. Despite the different mechanics of each healer, the very fact that SCH and AST is changed to a simpler versions of themselves is bleh. Most of them feel like a WHM + mechanic. WHM + Xenoglossy, WHM + cards, WHM + ghosting issues. They definitely need to change this.

Ranged Physicals/Melees/Casters, honestly no. They still play distinctively different from each other, but as this is the ranged physical thread, I'll expand on what physical ranged.

* BRD puts dots on and cycles through songs. Their kit changes depending on what songs they play.
* DNC plays like old MCH. You get a burst window every Devilment/Flourish window that you juggle procs into. Even the old 50/50 GCD proc is in there and tuned up to 11. It's not as fun as old MCH, but it definitely has its spirit.
* MCH is zzz

That's why I tend to focus on physical ranged problems as a role. I think the core rotation can and should be expanded upon, but their issues as a role overshadow the core rotation issues by a mile.

It doesn´t make sense to come up with raids which force that any specific class has some extra mechanics if you just look at what will come and what we already have.

Not specific class. Specific ROLE.
I'm not advocating for only a MCH to handle mechanics.
I'm not advocating for only a DNC to handle mechanics.
I'm not advocating for only a BRD to handle mechanics.

I'm advocating for all Physical Ranged to be given extra responsibility, like how it was back then.

This is like refuting that healers need more damage to heal. They do, and E11S is an example of a heal intensive fight.
This is like refuting that tanks need to reposition the boss. They do, and the tier doesn't have the boss teleport to the middle as much compared to Verse.
These are all scenarios where they made changes to their raid design to accomodate roles. So the precedent is already there.

They want it to be easy, static and strictly according to their own plan.

And adding more mechanics that the physical ranged can handle is a hell of a lot easier than making sure that raids are designed so there's one tiny spot for ranged physical to execute their 15 yalm max potency GCD.

I would have like 100 idea´s to make use of the mobility of phys. range., to force the OT to be more useful than eating one TB, to go away from DPS healers to actual heal-healers, and so on. I´m fully on your side with the stuff you requested, but sadly SE is ignorant or just want to cater more players in case for more business, otherwise we wouldn´t sit here and writing about such stuff.

All we can really do is make our voices heard. I disagree on a lot of your proposed ideas (DPS healers to actual heal-healers), but all we can really do is make our voices heard and talk about things.
On that point though, I hope you now understand why I prefer raid mechanics a lot more than ranged limits on GCDs and OGCDs.

[ssunny2008]

Not specific class. Specific ROLE.

Well yeah i should´ve written "class or role based", bad formulated.

The thing is, if we just look at the content from last year, there is nothing like that and i can´t believe that SE will change their mind. They want to force the said build of a raid-team, but that´s it imo. It would be another thing if you NEED those big shields to survive mechanic X, to have that kiting or baiting OT / phys. range dps in several mechanics, not just once in 12 fights for a short window. It has become pretty primitive and predictable.
E11/E12s are a good step in the healing direction, but if we have a look at E11s, you can still perform a good rotation. Cycles are the only real badass mechanic there and SE is even so smart to place prismatic right in front of it, just for the case any healer could be oom or without cd´s. As long as noone is dieing you don´t even need your class-stat, just hold MP reg on cd.
I can´t see much difference with the boss positions either. They do port back into the middle for the big mechanics. The only exception might be the dog in E10s when he switches his form.

It might be not a thing for you, but the phys. range play all very similar to me, just because i´ve the range, the mobility and can do whatever i want, when i want. That one is more dot/procc related and the other has burst, doesn´t make the difference in kind of "how does a class feel to play".

Imo i can´t trust in SE to return from their strict boss pattern and those stack/spread mechanics with RNG safezones. Don´t get me wrong, some are really good made and well presentated, but there are no real mechanics anymore which put the players under pressure or are made for specific roles. Overall damage has become to much of a factor than everything else.

On that point though, I hope you now understand why I prefer raid mechanics a lot more than ranged limits on GCDs and OGCDs.

Of course i do, the thing with raids and their mechanics was the first thing i talked about when this thread started. But away from this, i personally would like to see way more depth and unique stuff on them. Imo they´re way to boring and to similar to play for me. I love the base idea from bard, but it got nothing but flat raid damage and a cleanse you´ll never need.

[Payotz]

Of course i do, the thing with raids and their mechanics was the first thing i talked about when this thread started. But away from this, i personally would like to see way more depth and unique stuff on them. Imo they´re way to boring and to similar to play for me. I love the base idea from bard, but it got nothing but flat raid damage and a cleanse you´ll never need

At least we've come to an understanding on that part, and yeah the role definitely needs more depth job wise, which is why I think utility is the best on this front.

The thing is, if we just look at the content from last year, there is nothing like that and i can´t believe that SE will change their mind. They want to force the said build of a raid-team, but that´s it imo. It would be another thing if you NEED those big shields to survive mechanic X, to have that kiting or baiting OT / phys. range dps in several mechanics, not just once in 12 fights for a short window. It has become pretty primitive and predictable.

Imo i can´t trust in SE to return from their strict boss pattern and those stack/spread mechanics with RNG safezones. Don´t get me wrong, some are really good made and well presentated, but there are no real mechanics anymore which put the players under pressure or are made for specific roles. Overall damage has become to much of a factor than everything else.

Honestly, I was kinda of the same mentality when I raided this tier. I was kinda put off by this tier in particular because it's just nothing but Protean Waves on top of Protean Waves on top of more Protean Waves.
Until I actually took a look at casual content; The 24 mans, the Extremes and Delubrum. Specifically Delubrum.

There's honestly a LOT of creativty in those mechanics even though they don't hit as hard as Savage. It just seems that without any meta limits at all, they're more than capable of thinking of mechanics that are actually more creative than Savage. Hot/Cold, the Chess board mechanics in the last boss, Ghost boss has potential as a base mechanic in future content. Even thinking back to launch, Innocence EX is actually a really creative and high tempo fight that's really unique among all fights in this expansion. The whole fight's just a massive melting pot of personal responsibility and "Oh shit move fast" type of gameplay that it's just ridiculously fun despite the very low dps check.

So I'm really optimistic that the raid team can pull it off. I have more faith in the raid design team a lot more than the job design team in fact.
If anything, I'm slowly appreciating Bozja and slowly realizing that Bozja is where the raid team can actually experiment with a lot of mechanics without affecting the raid scene.

[ssunny2008]

snip

I don´t think it lacks of creativity. It´s more like they put more stuff into those alliance raids, because you´ve a big amount of players and no enrage mechanics. You can´t force perfectly timed mechanics and dps from a bunch of random players who comes together via finder. You don´t even need a decent strategy or uptime, you just play it down. Such stuff would not work in savage and that´s why SE probably focuses more on precise and static gameplay in such raids. And overall it´s still "once seen and it´s going to be easy". (The endboss in castrum might be a good example atleast for needed dps. But as we see, too many ppl still failing to beat the beastmaster. But hey, it´s a mechanic where the players decide who´s going to do that, not the RNG.)

They should get ride of their pattern "aoe-mechanic-tb-aoe-mechanic-tb etc..." and design every boss from ground up different. More double / triple bosses or boss + add and not just an addphase would be welcome too.

They should nerf / rework a bunch of tools of all classes. TB are a perfect example. You invul them up to 3 times per fight, maybe even 4. The dog is the only one where a real tankswap is needed thx to the debuffs. The TB´s in E12s force a lot of defs, but nothing is coming after that. No hardhitting boss, no def-rotation, no permanent tank swaps every minute to assist the healer, nothing. It´s just not needed. I play WAR on another char and it´s like "Don´t worry healer, i´m going to invul and healing myself after the TB!". Or you´ve PLD who easily use his invul to eat every mechanic without any damage debuff. On top of that, each defs on tanks became pretty much the same. I would like to see someone coming up like "Let DRK taking this tankbuster, it´s magical damage!"

Bard has a cleanse, but for what? Debuffs has become so rare and it has only a one time use. You can´t really assist the healer with it.

Ranges has a silence, why does tanks have a silence? They made use of double silence in E8s addphase, but that´s it. It´s actually probably one of the better mechanics since it was a dps check and you needed those stuns and silent abilites.

Limit break is a cool thing, but heal LB3 is just broken and saves more than enough runs which should´ve ended at some point. I´ve done like 100 E6s runs and only like 5 of them were clean. The most went down at the last mechanic with the DD tethers, but np, one heal survived, gg! Tank LB3 is pretty much non existent unless fights like alex or WoL force its one time use for whatever reason. DD LB3 is fine if you miss that 1% damage, but it´s getting useless pretty fast and destroys the rotation of the DPS pretty much.

And the list goes on. We´ve too much tools which are not forced to be used often enough or too strong tools which gets pretty much abused to play around a handful of mechanics or issues a class could have without a decent build. The rest are some medigation tools to survive big aoe´s, which are always at the same point in the fight. Here again, once seen, press the button.

EDIT: Btw i would like to see stuff like castrum as 8-man savage content. To play a complete dungeon with 4-5 bosses, some hardhitting trashgroups, puzzles and no timer would bring more enjoyment than the current system to me.