The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[ssunny2008]

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It´s all some kind of decision-making, but it´s definately more optimization than being that impactful and deep gameplay design. You just react and press the button earlier or later, but you still stand on the same spot waiting for the next mechanic.

A physical ranged having their mobility restricted by its own kit feels terrible, and I would honestly prefer for raid mechanics themselves to restrict mobility, or outright abuse it.

As i´ve said, not much brain in the ideas and of course those are gimmicks in first case, but it´s something more you´ve to care about or which lies in players hands next to press a button before a bar overloads or a procc is gone into nowhere. Distance based damage or that bond doesn´t restrict the mobility, it makes actually use of them. You´ve to position yourself and you have like 3 skills which need like 10-12m distance and 3 skills which need 3-5m distance. You move there, do your stuff, move back or even rotate with your skills when a boss mechanic or healer cuddling comes up. It´s not like i said "it´s that perfect idea". It´s just an example for a requirement which is similar to positionals or casting times, but which obviously needs a range class and high mobility.

I would honestly prefer them to just give back what already worked and loved rather than do something new that will actually make the role pretty much unplayable.

Well if nobody wouldn´t have complained about old stuff, nothing would´ve changed probably. And it doesn´t matter what´s happening, someone will come and complain. Either about RNG or clipping or weaving or boring or dps or......
A lot of ppl here seem to think that BLM is "perfectly rounded". I could open a barrel about what´s actually wrong with this class so. But i don´t, because other enjoy it as it is.

Tbh, the current DNC, BRD and MCH are straight up boring to play. I personally can´t see how ppl actually enjoy it. If i play them, i´m so bored i jump and run around all day long until a new mechanic appears, meanwhile pressing my buttons and waiting for proccs. Something needs to be done and it should be a real requirement gimmick in my eyes. Nobody would even say any word again about a higher dps, if they get something to care about. And i can´t see any gimmick being "unplayable" as long as phys. range have the advantage of being ranged classes without casting times but with high mobility.

[Payotz]

It´s all some kind of decision-making, but it´s definately more optimization than being that impactful and deep gameplay design. You just react and press the button earlier or later, but you still stand on the same spot waiting for the next mechanic.

Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design. Having the extra room to actually get better at the game is depth.
Raid design does have impact on how deep the gameplay is, but typically it's only one half of the equation.
You said it yourself, you react to procs rather than rely on a reliable OGCD or GCD, and that really is decision making at its very core.
It's not something you make at the striking dummy, it's something you make in that specific moment of the fight, in that specific pull.

You´ve to position yourself and you have like 3 skills which need like 10-12m distance and 3 skills which need 3-5m distance. You move there, do your stuff, move back or even rotate with your skills when a boss mechanic or healer cuddling comes up. It´s not like i said "it´s that perfect idea". It´s just an example for a requirement which is similar to positionals or casting times, but which obviously needs a range class and high mobility.

And that's really an arbritary restriction that I'm talking about. Needing 10-12m distance like a SC Siege Tank regardless of raid mechanics is restricting movement. Yes, it's not the "perfect idea", it's actually a completely horrible one, and I would prefer for raid mechanics to focus ranged physicals a lot more, or have ranged physicals do more mechanics and have more responsibility so they can abuse their mobility and range. This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements. It takes a lot more skill to do a rotation when you're getting AoEs and Twisters on top of you while having to kite an add akin to E5S.

Well if nobody wouldn´t have complained about old stuff, nothing would´ve changed probably. And it doesn´t matter what´s happening, someone will come and complain. Either about RNG or clipping or weaving or boring or dps or......

And that's fine. That's completely fine. It just doesn't have to result in something being dumbed down or having their identity torn out of the jobs. It shouldn't have to result in raid design losing the one factor where physical ranged is actually benificial. The game thrives on criticism, it's up to the job design and raid design team to think about them and make changes according to their own judgement. If I still don't like the changes like many in this expansion (no TK Monk, MCH Rework, SCH overhaul etc...) then I make my voice heard again. We are free to argue about our opinions as much as we would like, and hopefully someone in the dev team is reading this and taking notes.

Though, I'm pretty sure nobody complained about BRD job design. Only MCH(still holding onto that hope that they revert MCH dear god)

Tbh, the current DNC, BRD and MCH are straight up boring to play. I personally can´t see how ppl actually enjoy it. If i play them, i´m so bored i jump and run around all day long until a new mechanic appears, meanwhile pressing my buttons and waiting for proccs.

This is the big problem with the raid design more with a little bit of job design. Since ranged physicals don't handle more mechanics that abuse their mobility, they're left without a job. It's like what if Tanks can't position the bosses anymore, or the Healers literally don't heal anything and just keep pressing Glare, the Melees just stand on one general area the whole entire raid with a boss that has no positionals, and literally every raid has a special "BLM" spot so the BLM doesn't have to adjust movements using procs and instants. That's why I really just advocate for more mechanic responsibility for ranged physical instead.

And i can´t see any gimmick being "unplayable" as long as phys. range have the advantage of being ranged classes without casting times but with high mobility.

And I pretty much explained in my last post why giving ranged physicals what they had last time is better than a new gimmick that may not work due to how the backend and the whole game is designed.
It's unplayable in FF14, but it's real possible in another MMO.

[Rika007]

Though, I'm pretty sure nobody complained about BRD job design. Only MCH(still holding onto that hope that they revert MCH dear god)

That's the one thing I was gonna say honestly... Pretty sure Stormblood Bard was one of the most well received reworks in 14's history. It was one of the most well loved jobs in the game. Shadowbringers destroyed that. It's one of the least played jobs now.

[Jirah]

That's the one thing I was gonna say honestly... Pretty sure Stormblood Bard was one of the most well received reworks in 14's history. It was one of the most well loved jobs in the game. Shadowbringers destroyed that. It's one of the least played jobs now.

lets be honest SB and SHB BRD are pretty identical they lost MP/TP support and Foes and play somewhat the same, it is only the least played because DNC is brand new and MCH is essentially not recognized from SB MCH and is the safest non threatening job in the game with zero real concerns. Hard to compete with that

[Rika007]

lets be honest SB and SHB BRD are pretty identical they lost MP/TP support and Foes and play somewhat the same, it is only the least played because DNC is brand new and MCH is essentially not recognized from SB MCH and is the safest non threatening job in the game with zero real concerns. Hard to compete with that

Nothing about that statement is honest, SB and SHB Bard are only alike in the core base rotation being the same. Outside of that SHB is a vastly inferior job due to the many passive trait changes they implemented, causing far more frustrations in things like just basic gameplay, on top of all the changes made to the support kit.

-Procs no longer being based on Crit means that the ramp up we felt later on in the expansion where Repertoire happened far more often due to higher crit ratios is now gone. That removes the really fun feeling of having those insane 3 or 4 full powered pitch perfects within raging strikes, or the high level play of judging when it was smarter to use two stacks to avoid an overcap. This turned what was once a heavy burst job into a more sustained damage job, as Bard now has one of the lowest bursts in the game when it used to be one of the highest in Stormblood.

-The straight shot buff now proc'ing on Iron Jaws creates more damage bleed as you can overwrite refulgent procs due to conflicts that arise from needing to reapply Iron Jaws.

-The implementation of Apex Arrow and the Soul Gauge causes another wrench in the rotation causing frustration, as one, it is your second hardest hitting ability that can't be relied upon to show up during your raging strikes burst window. And two, is another GCD that is pushed into your main rotation that you want to use as soon as it hits 100%, but also can cause conflicts if it hits 100 right when you need to reapply Iron Jaws. Also it's another AOE aim dependent move which is just not fun or satisfying to players to use... but that is diverging from the topic.

-The addition of the Army's Muse trait causes anyone without good ping to run into clipping issues while attempting to double weave whenever they leave Army's Paeon and goes into Army's Minuet.

The only outright positive changes that came about to the rotation was the addition of Barrage, proc'ing refulgent. Anything else was a negative.

As for the Support loss you are massively underplaying the other things that Bard loss. TP support is the only thing no ones crying about losing. Any good Bard worth their salt also enjoyed the mini-game of planning out refresh uses to insure they got the most use out of Foe's Requiem to line up with raid window buffs. Trobadour being something that was dependent upon which song you used was another skill expression moment, as it required fight knowledge, although I understand some may prefer the new way. Nature's minne may have been buffed in power, but it was also doubled in cool down, which means less uses overall. Which combined with the gutting of palisade, left anyone who enjoyed using it in raid settings to help deal with auto attack damage when all major healer and tank cooldowns have been blown (after Hello World 2 in A12s being my favorite part). That's a whole lot of interactive support Bard lost that good Bard players did take advantage of and use, that was replaced with nothing.

Add all that in with the obscenely low damage output, and nah I can't in anyway say it's honest to state that SB and SHB Bard still play the same. SHB Bard is just the remaining bones of what was once a near perfect job. The meat and soul of what made it great are gone. Dancer and the MCH rework coming in may have led to a few leaving, but that doesn't add up to what was legitimately the most played DPS job at all levels of play suddenly becoming the second lowest of all jobs, with only Monk being lower.

[Jirah]

Nothing about that statement is honest, SB and SHB Bard are only alike in the core base rotation being the same.

this is exactly what i meant when i said they played the same as in "you play them and feel little difference besides TPMP management foes and straight shot buff" im aware of crit being changed for a flat percentage and actually never noticed it before until i reread my Dot description. I never ran into issues with Iron jaws and refulgent being conflicting tbh Apex arrow is a aoe skill first which is stupidly designed for single fights and itll be remembered as a questionable choice to have the aoe before a ST action i understand that well and it flows unnaturally with the whole kit due to the capp damage and GCD type deal. The role loss isnt unique to BRD, MCH also lost all there goods.

potency is irrelevant to me in the grand scheme of things tbh, if the job plays well thats all that matters potency is just nonsense due it being non-concrete unless its completely under powered or overpowered which BRD isnt. MCH and DNC are literally the reason why BRD is so low played and the community fooling themselves its the weakest job even weird complaints saying its too hard or too busy which is completely contrary to people wishing it was SB again. BRD lost a arm and a leg due to the role nerf i wont deny that but BRD isnt no where near a horrible state as other jobs just because its "obscenely low damage output" or because it not popular

[ssunny2008]

Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design.

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.
Imagine we would´ve some skilltrees to prepare for differen bosses aka burst for dps checks, better DoTs for downtimes or multiple adds/bosses.
I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design, when nearly all subclasses play similar to each other and the whole class design is strict to make balancing easier / to hold the classes easy to cater every kind of player. It´s still MNK, BLM and RDM for me, who has atleast some uniqueness in their kit. It doesn´t matter how easy you can get used to it if train stuff at a dummy. Is just the base design which is different.

This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements

I get you, but isn´t that the real issue imo? The players obviously want their mobility to stay, otherwise you would still have casting times or whatever. You want that the raid is designed around that, but how? If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing. Not that i would be against it. I would welcome new bosses without the strict SE pattern, multiple bosses at once where a DPS has to kite one as long as the others focus on the rest, etc... but that´s obviously not possible. The casualization is real and SE is either uninspired and lazy or just follows the golden rule "don´t touch a running system". I would call it´s the 2nd part, maybe even both since every addon is going to be the same.
It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics." More freedom for the player combined with some unique class requirements would make a difference. Put new boss designs on top of that and the gameplay would probably be much better and more than that "1 kill enjoyment". (e.g. Castrum before the lootpatch)

[Payotz]

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.

But it does exist. It is impactful and deep gameplay design. Whether or not the game requires it to clear content is a different topic entirely, the most important part is that there's potential for improvement.
Again, the game is not forcing you to do positionals as a MNK either, but that doesn't mean it has no positionals. The bosses could have no positionals like Bozja, but that would not change that the job has positionals.
It's up to the player if they're gonna do positionals or not, and to that I reiterate my point that static rotations is much less decision making and more muscle memory than proc based jobs.
They both have depth, just that proc-based jobs are forced to think on the fly rather than static rotations and thus have more decision making.

I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design

And this is why we can't really argue about this objectively. This is a subjective argument all in all.

You want that the raid is designed around that, but how?

I've been giving out examples for the past few posts now. Let me get a snippet from my original post:

2.Bring back Mechanics that will benefit from a Ranged Physical handling it. Notable examples would be BJ/CC Superjump, O11S Panto baits, or maybe even just positioning, like painting the Siren on O6S, Taking a kind of Prey/Flare mechanic from the party, or just plain applying a heavy on an add like in T7. This will add a LOT more gameplay to Physical Ranged, add more responsibility to the phys ranged player and will also justify their mobility and a spot at the party aside from just a 1% buff that you can't control.

If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing.

And that's bad why? Physical ranged has been doing it ever since Coil up until O11S.
That demands a lot more skill for the physical ranged player because of their no positioning requirements and mobility.
Add more utility on top of that, like mitigation tools, resource tools and the role would have their depth back!
It would add a lot more gameplay and would be more preferable to gimmicky range requirements and a 1% DPS buff.

It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics."

I've been refuting your argument for giving up mobility and you've been ignoring my points for a while now.
Removing mobility will not work for ranged physicals
You know what would work? Click Me

[ssunny2008]

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I read your stuff, imagine i´ve even liked your "click me" post after it showed up. But i´m trying to get what might be SE´s big plan. Of course a lot of stuff could and SHOULD change. As i´ve even said, i´ve no issue with more and depth or even phys. range orientated mechanics. There is no bad thing with it.

The issue is, that SE goes the easy way to balance the classes and obviously wants to offer any content for everyone. They don´t go for much unique and different gameplay anymore. They force the classes into specific roles and those roles play pretty much similar to each other. Tanks got pretty much all the same. Healer work pretty much the same. Range work pretty much the same, especially BRD/DNC. Melees work the same next to MNK positionals and NIN´s ninjutsu. Only casters are not THAT similar to each other thx to BLM design and RDM range/melee combos. Do you agree on that or do you see that big of a difference i don´t?

Keep that in mind and look forward. We´ve 4 similar tanks, so MT/OT isn´t that big of a deal anymore or that 1 tank would be better at boss X, the other at boss Y. Endwalker brings a 4th healer, which was pretty obviously. So healers are splitted in cure/shield healers. Then we get a 5th melee class on top of that. (unexpected)
This means SE wants to force those 2 tanks, 2 melee, 1 caster , 1p.r. , 1 cure and 1 shield heal raidgroups. But they still want to go the way, that it doesn´t matter which class you play.

It doesn´t make sense to come up with raids which force that any specific class has some extra mechanics if you just look at what will come and what we already have. Is obviously nothing what SE still wants. They want it to be easy, static and strictly according to their own plan. It´s up to us to force SE to give us better raids, better mechanics, better class designs and to stop the route SE is going imo. I would have like 100 idea´s to make use of the mobility of phys. range., to force the OT to be more useful than eating one TB, to go away from DPS healers to actual heal-healers, and so on. I´m fully on your side with the stuff you requested, but sadly SE is ignorant or just want to cater more players in case for more business, otherwise we wouldn´t sit here and writing about such stuff.

[Payotz]

I read your stuff, imagine i´ve even liked your "click me" post after it showed up. But i´m trying to get what might be SE´s big plan.

I've seen an interview in Famitsu(that I can't actually find the source now due to me being in the workplace) that the endgoals is to have a "Second Life"-esque game where the player can actually pick up and play the game, and that it will have no drastic changes so that a player who's quit now can return 2 years from now and still play the game. They strive to have every job be playable and be able to clear content. I honestly don't like this plan at all(besides the every job being able to clear content part, to an extent, and I don't really know if their plan changed due to feedback or are they still bulldozing through it.

The issue is, that SE goes the easy way to balance the classes and obviously wants to offer any content for everyone. They don´t go for much unique and different gameplay anymore. They force the classes into specific roles and those roles play pretty much similar to each other. Tanks got pretty much all the same. Healer work pretty much the same. Range work pretty much the same, especially BRD/DNC. Melees work the same next to MNK positionals and NIN´s ninjutsu. Only casters are not THAT similar to each other thx to BLM design and RDM range/melee combos. Do you agree on that or do you see that big of a difference i don´t?

I do and the same time I don't. It's all in a case-by-case basis. The feeling that jobs under some of the roles feeling like they're the same is definitely there despite some minute differences among them.

Tank design, yes. They're all pretty much the same. The only thing that's different is GNB due to their core rotation.

Healers, yes. Despite the different mechanics of each healer, the very fact that SCH and AST is changed to a simpler versions of themselves is bleh. Most of them feel like a WHM + mechanic. WHM + Xenoglossy, WHM + cards, WHM + ghosting issues. They definitely need to change this.

Ranged Physicals/Melees/Casters, honestly no. They still play distinctively different from each other, but as this is the ranged physical thread, I'll expand on what physical ranged.

* BRD puts dots on and cycles through songs. Their kit changes depending on what songs they play.
* DNC plays like old MCH. You get a burst window every Devilment/Flourish window that you juggle procs into. Even the old 50/50 GCD proc is in there and tuned up to 11. It's not as fun as old MCH, but it definitely has its spirit.
* MCH is zzz

That's why I tend to focus on physical ranged problems as a role. I think the core rotation can and should be expanded upon, but their issues as a role overshadow the core rotation issues by a mile.

It doesn´t make sense to come up with raids which force that any specific class has some extra mechanics if you just look at what will come and what we already have.

Not specific class. Specific ROLE.
I'm not advocating for only a MCH to handle mechanics.
I'm not advocating for only a DNC to handle mechanics.
I'm not advocating for only a BRD to handle mechanics.

I'm advocating for all Physical Ranged to be given extra responsibility, like how it was back then.

This is like refuting that healers need more damage to heal. They do, and E11S is an example of a heal intensive fight.
This is like refuting that tanks need to reposition the boss. They do, and the tier doesn't have the boss teleport to the middle as much compared to Verse.
These are all scenarios where they made changes to their raid design to accomodate roles. So the precedent is already there.

They want it to be easy, static and strictly according to their own plan.

And adding more mechanics that the physical ranged can handle is a hell of a lot easier than making sure that raids are designed so there's one tiny spot for ranged physical to execute their 15 yalm max potency GCD.

I would have like 100 idea´s to make use of the mobility of phys. range., to force the OT to be more useful than eating one TB, to go away from DPS healers to actual heal-healers, and so on. I´m fully on your side with the stuff you requested, but sadly SE is ignorant or just want to cater more players in case for more business, otherwise we wouldn´t sit here and writing about such stuff.

All we can really do is make our voices heard. I disagree on a lot of your proposed ideas (DPS healers to actual heal-healers), but all we can really do is make our voices heard and talk about things.
On that point though, I hope you now understand why I prefer raid mechanics a lot more than ranged limits on GCDs and OGCDs.