The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[Payotz]

So imagine you gonna be in line with the others in DPS. Imagine you get better or more raidbuffs / medigation. Maybe even a new feature with a skill to use in the end, but is that enough to "feel rewarded"?! For me it wouldn´t be enough.

It is. I do agree that MCH right now has literally NO gap between good MCHs and bad MCHs, but I disagree with BRD and DNC. There used to be a lot of nuance with BRD back in SB, and despite it being dumbed down by a lot in this expansion, the skill expression is still definitely there with proc/apex juggling. DNC's skill expression is definitely there with delaying your dances depending on procs, and making sure that your Dance still lines up by keeping track of GCDs you've delayed, not unlike how SAM adjusts their filler during downtime. If anything, your ideas about how braindead ranged physical is actually only applies to MCH. And if they're gonna reimplement gunmage, then that's fine with me.

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.

That's pretty much the nature of combat in this game, especially if you're in a static. Farm parties are the most boring shit ever. Advanced Relativity was only really hard during blind prog, and it just turns out that Advanced Relativity is just braindead easy post prog. The encounters are heavily scripted that the only job that gets varied gameplay in a highly optimized group is proc based jobs like BRD, DNC and jobs that depend on positioning like BLM. This is honestly a problem with 8 man content, not a ranged physical problem.

As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

The thing is, this isn't actually what's wrong with the role. You can do "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight" just fine with BRD/DNC. It actually takes a lot more brainpower to adjust GCDs on the fly for DNC and juggle procs as BRD, especially in a two target fight. Procs bring a lot of potential for optimization in encounters, you can say it's RNG, I say it's adapting on the fly. It's skill expression.

The main problem is that even with "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight" they're still on the bottom for dps without anything to answer as to "why". Physical Ranged mobility is useless in this tier and raid series. We all just stand in a clockwise position, and move once per minute for mechanics. The only real time I get disadvantaged in a fight as a BLM is during Lion's with no Tether. There's no mechanic that's specific for you to handle, like O11S Panto, that justifies Ranged Physical's movement. No add to kite around the arena. No AoEs that spawn on you. No Twister to bait on your position. No Mustard Bomb to bait away from the party. Nothing.

While I would like the rotation rework too(especially for MCH), I don't think that is the right answer for the role(but maybe for MCH). I think raid design, more utility based gameplay, and more optimization tools for the party is a lot better than the role's rotation being reworked for a 3rd time(except for MCH. I really hate ShB MCH).

[ssunny2008]

While I would like the rotation rework too(especially for MCH), I don't think that is the right answer for the role(but maybe for MCH). I think raid design, more utility based gameplay, and more optimization tools for the party is a lot better than the role's rotation being reworked for a 3rd time(except for MCH. I really hate ShB MCH).

Yeah raid design is a serious issue. To static and predictable. OT is there just to be there for the case or to take the 2nd TB. Healers can pretty much rotate with their healing abilities and a lot of bosses can be solo-healed. DPS just need to remember and try out to maximize their damage. But the difference for me lies still in the classes in some way. Playing melee or caster just eats more time in my case to maximize my performance especially with RNG mechanics. I´m way faster with phys. range dps.

I don´t know if i could be fine with bard and DNC. Procc depended gameplay is nothing deep for me. You just wait for the skill to show up or for the reset, otherwise you play 1-2-1-2 and hope to be lucky. On top of that i can´t see a really gap between good or bad players there too. It´s up a lot to RNG especially in burst phases with raidbuffs from DRG, MNK, AST... it can make a big difference if your songs or advanced abilites procc or not in such moments. And on top of that your rDPS relies more on other players than yourself. It´s a good thing in one way, i would love to see more group-stuff which are needed for boss dps-checks instead of being just that flat damage buff you press on cd. But to say "i´m a good bard/DNC" (DPS depended), you need a good group.

[Payotz]

I don´t know if i could be fine with bard and DNC. Procc depended gameplay is nothing deep for me. You just wait for the skill to show up or for the reset, otherwise you play 1-2-1-2 and hope to be lucky. On top of that i can´t see a really gap between good or bad players there too.

I think at this point we can't really argue subjectively about it. These really are your own views, so it's really just up to personal opinion whether you think it's easy or not.
I'm more of the opinion that static jobs (SAM, MCH, GNB, PLD, current MNK) are a lot less skill intensive than proc based jobs because you can pretty much just spend 5 mins on a practice dummy and burn it into your muscle memory to perform well in raid. Memorizing something is a lot easier than adjusting to RNG.

And on top of that your rDPS relies more on other players than yourself. It´s a good thing in one way, i would love to see more group-stuff which are needed for boss dps-checks instead of being just that flat damage buff you press on cd. But to say "i´m a good bard/DNC" (DPS depended), you need a good group.

There's nothing wrong with the job if you look at it from that perspective. It's just an issue with how "skill" is presented in FFlogs itself. Most people just look at rdps alone or adps alone as the end-all be-all of player skill when people should be looking at a LOT more factors when determining it. A mistake can very easily be erased by a lucky crit, A green parse can easily be explained by just low ilvl especially after week 8, and clear times also matter for pot timings and raid buff timings as the faster you clear, the more you need to rearrange pot timings so you don't lose usage.

RDPS is a failed metric if you just take a look at RDPS specifically. We all know this. Hell, DPS itself is a failed metric due to how high the differences between damage rolls in this game, especially with crit. We can really see this in how Bard was so sought after in pugs back in Stormblood. One of the main reason why Bard was meta in pugs back in the day was because there was no rdps split from normal DPS. It was just DPS. So people just started wanting more raid buffs, more Trick Attacks, more Battle Litanies. If rdps and adps was split from normal DPS back in SB, I assure you that MCH wouldn't be looked as "BRD but worse" in pugs at all.

So I don't think taking a look at just one metric ALONE is good for determining a player's value and a job's value. Even if you add the caveat of "I'm just a good BRD in terms of DPS", there's a lot more factors that build into that number.

This is honestly why I'm leaning towards clear times as a metric instead. But that would honestly not work in a pug setting, but that's a topic for another time.

[CKNovel]

RDPS is a failed metric if you just take a look at RDPS specifically. We all know this. Hell, DPS itself is a failed metric due to how high the differences between damage rolls in this game, especially with crit. We can really see this in how Bard was so sought after in pugs back in Stormblood. One of the main reason why Bard was meta in pugs back in the day was because there was no rdps split from normal DPS. It was just DPS. So people just started wanting more raid buffs, more Trick Attacks, more Battle Litanies. If rdps and adps was split from normal DPS back in SB, I assure you that MCH wouldn't be looked as "BRD but worse" in pugs at all.

So I don't think taking a look at just one metric ALONE is good for determining a player's value and a job's value. Even if you add the caveat of "I'm just a good BRD in terms of DPS", there's a lot more factors that build into that number.

Not only a poor metric, it's actually the worst and most incomplete way to evaluate a player.
As you said, it's easy to perform a good "score" when the job doesn't have rDPS. You can evaluate a good MCH from a bad MCH. How can you tell if they used mitigation or the AQ was used in raid buffs window from rDPS alone? You can't.
If you spend your resources into those buffs, it's your teammates rDPS that will increase.

DPS is but a step. You need to be able to DPS, but you have many other task to perform. What's the point of being able to get a very good dps output if you're not consistent and makes the progress slow?
Consistency, Learning Speed and Adaptability are things you can't evaluate looking at DPS meter alone. And that's probably why SQEX doesn't want to add one, most player would rely entirely on it.

[ssunny2008]

I think at this point we can't really argue subjectively about it. These really are your own views, so it's really just up to personal opinion whether you think it's easy or not.
I'm more of the opinion that static jobs (SAM, MCH, GNB, PLD, current MNK) are a lot less skill intensive than proc based jobs because you can pretty much just spend 5 mins on a practice dummy and burn it into your muscle memory to perform well in raid. Memorizing something is a lot easier than adjusting to RNG.

I won´t call it so hard subjectively seen. Of course i´ve written "for me", but the thing is, that FF14 doesn´t offer much of a deep gameplay and i agree that you can easily learn a lot of classes at the dummies. Rotations can be learned from anyone. Proccs are just buttons you press as fast as you can. The so called "skill" is more up to decision-making if things goes down under or to find the perfect strategy / spot to beat a boss. Unique gameplay has become really rare with all the class and boss changes.
The current monk is a joke yes, but permanent positionals and the decision about SSS/FS/chakra/TN and RoE are atleast something you can work with. BLM is probably the only class who adjust with the rotation based on proccs and triplecast / teleport etc. Ninjutsu are kind of unique too, but still to "meta-related". I mean, it´s obvious which skill you force to use in several situations.
Healers are actually those who always need to adapt, because some bs can happen at any time and there you clearly see a gap between good and bad healers. On the other hand they are able to perform a clear "healing rotation" thx to the overall boss design.

As i´ve said in the beginning, phys. range are not alone with that thx to SE´s decision-making and primitive boss design. The most classes rely on "press button X in moment Y" and that´s far away from what i personally would call "skill" or atleast deeper gameplay.

Consistency, Learning Speed and Adaptability are things you can't evaluate looking at DPS meter alone. And that's probably why SQEX doesn't want to add one, most player would rely entirely on it.

You´re right, but such skills are personal things. It´s hard to improve for a lot of players, just because the evolution didn´t gave them such gaming-abilities. It´s not possible to measure them. You can only measure DPS, heal and medigation.
The most players just play for DPS and that´s why they fail and / or force the raid to wipe after a death or whatever. It´s like always the E-D comparison and in the nature of humans to feel good to climb "at leaderbords". Aside from that, how hard is it actually to medigate or heal? The most healers are just in trouble because ppl get a hit or die and they wasted swiftcast in their own rotation or don´t have enough mana left thx to pure crit builds. Medigation is just a button you press when the boss casts his aoe. The most players do even rely on any guides, because they don´t read their skills or don´t want to go blind into a bossfight. Even if they do, mostly just 2-3 players arque about a decent strategy. (Man there is even that stupid bot...like why?)

That´s pretty much all this game offers imo and i can feel that healers are the next one who´ll get dumbed down. I can´t understand how so much players can be happy with this and just some new buttons / a different rotation each expansion or actually care about DPS only. The gameplay could be so much more with all the old status effects, TP/MP, tanks and healers being forced to stack their unique stat instead of crit, hardhitting bosses and not just defense on TB, no invul, no heal LB3, just one rezz per bossfight, skilltrees, 3 bosses at once, kiting, dps checks, and and and... and first of all, deep and unique mechanics for every class, not just gimmicks with new animations and bars to load.
SE doesn´t even give the players the chance to improve with their current content line, especially on tanks and phys. range classes.

[Payotz]

I won´t call it so hard subjectively seen. Of course i´ve written "for me", but the thing is, that FF14 doesn´t offer much of a deep gameplay and i agree that you can easily learn a lot of classes at the dummies. Rotations can be learned from anyone. Proccs are just buttons you press as fast as you can. The so called "skill" is more up to decision-making if things goes down under or to find the perfect strategy / spot to beat a boss. Unique gameplay has become really rare with all the class and boss changes. The current monk is a joke yes, but permanent positionals and the decision about SSS/FS/chakra/TN and RoE are atleast something you can work with.

I mean you can't really add "for me" and then present it as fact. That's just shielding an opinion and presenting it as fact.

I agree with all you've said about BLM, but honestly, the "decision making" for True North and SSS and RoE isn't really decision making at all. It's pretty much a cooldown you press at a specific time in the fight timeline to gain uptime. That's all it is. If Chakra wasn't 100% every crit then I'd say you'd have some decision making to do due to it being unpredictable, but honestly all of these decision making skills you're talking about are the same as popping Surecast in a fight, or popping Addle during Relativity. It's all just static buttons you press regardless.

Procs have a lot more thinking involved due to its unpredictable nature. You don't press the button as fast as you can, you actually think about a lot of things.

Can I fit Iron Jaws in if I immediately use up the RA Proc?

Should I save my WM stacks to bait for a 3rd proc or should I blast it and be safe?

Hmmm, do I do my melee GCD proc first or do I use up Espiritus?

How much do I need to delay Technical Finish so I can use this GCD proc, and if I do, do I lose a use of it in the fight?

Do I also delay Flourish to use this feather? But if I do, I'll lose a GCD proc hard and I'll delay my dances more.

These are pretty much just a few scenarios off the top of my head that can come up during raid. It's just the nature of a proc-based/priority based job, and honestly I see that as decision making, rather than weaving in RoE during a raid wide.

[ssunny2008]

I mean you can't really add "for me" and then present it as fact. That's just shielding an opinion and presenting it as fact.

That´s why i´ve written "hard". Of course there is some taste of an own opinion, but i think we can agree, that a lot of stuff goes into the wrong direction objectively seen.

snip

It´s not about such monk skills only, it´s the combination with the lack of range, permanent positionals and a handful of skills which help to hold / increase your dps. And going into a short downtime with SSS, FS or that 0,5s greed with unforbidden chakra makes a difference.

You´re getting used to your examples very quickly too. On the other hand, the game might hate you. Maybe you just get only 2/3 proccs, sometimes you get like 10 bloodletter resets, the next song like 1. The game could love you aswell and as longer the fight goes on, it might be 50/50 in the end. But it still isn´t unique or deep in some way.
Buffs are another topic. The standard is to unleash them immediately unless you know about downtime in the next 5s or so. To "plan" those buffs is more kind of a decent strategy with a decent group, but never needed in any fight. E11s is a good example and really depends on the other players / classes for me. Either i´ll delay all my cooldowns till prismatic is over to come together with DRG or AST raidbuffs or i don´t. If i do, i´m going to miss one burstwindow in the end before the enrage shows up. But this doesn´t matter if we kill the boss 1 minute earlier. But then you´ve that low DPS group and any delay would be counter-productive.
But here again, it might be the players decision, you could even call it "a more skilled player" to think about such stuff. But the game doesn´t force it by itself and it´s not something the class design is offering to you. It´s raid optimization.

To be full melee with permanent positionals or being that static BLM together with a handful of skills to play around certain boss mechanics is what makes such classes way more unique than others in kind of the gameplay design. Even RDM`s design is unique with melee and range, but it´s still too static. It would be another thing if you couldn´t use your range spells as long as you´re in melee range, but so...

Imo phys. range subclasses has nothing unique, just gimmicks. The core design is to be that free mobility class without any casting times and that´s it.
What would you say if bard gets those distance based multipliers on some skills?
Or DNC who would have partner based skill like "play close to him" or "on the opposite at the boss, so a bond between you and your partner will damage him"?
Even MCH could work with a bond on his robot. Or let him build a fat transformer within the fight and the evolution (Optimus, Megatron, Omega?!) depends on the order you summon other turrets or robots.

It´s not much brain involved in such ideas imo, but it´s a deeper class based design than being those procc related classes with a lots of freedom and single gimmicks. The songs / dance designs are pretty cool, fit the classes und could be so unique too. But in the end it´s just a shallow implementation to spread some groupbuffs.