The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[Rika007]

I don´t want to arque about the dmg thing again, just saying somewhat.

Why does playing a phys. range should be some kind of rewarding?

.Snip.

So again, for what should phys. range getting rewarded in some way, when there is like 0 depth or needed adjustments in their kit? Personally i could max out my DPS on phys. range at any fight pretty fast as long as i´ve played the mechanics down once. That´s not possible with the other classes. I´ll practice, i´ll greed and i´ll die until i found the perfect second or position to do whatever is needed.

Speaking as a former Physical ranged main who shaped over to caster for an entire expansion worth of savage content? This take is honestly just insulting.

1) Regardless of 'ease of use', ALL players deserve to feel rewarded for playing their job at a high level, this isn't negotiable, just hard truth. If a job doesn't feel rewarding to play for a vast majority of those players, then that is a failure of no one else's but the the dev teams. Ranged Dps, healers, casters, doesn't matter. If the job isn't rewarding to play, that is a failure, regardless of role.

2) Ranged DPS is not some brain dead job and stop advocating like it is. I've done this entire expansion on caster after doing the previous two expansions on Bard. I don't use anymore ounce of Brainpower on Summoner now then I did on Bard during Stormblood. There seems to be this fallacy that ranged players get to just sit out in the middle of no where, without a concern in the world about any mechanics, completely ignoring that any fight that requires more then a pulse will insure that the ranged player is stuck right next to the boss, doing all mechanics just like any of the melee's and casters do. If you are not then more then likely you are getting yelled at by healers to get back in closer.

Yes they don't have cast times, or positionals to worry about (although these days, melee positionals are a joke compared to what they used to be back in 2.0 and 3.0), so being a little bit lower makes sense, but no where near the gap there is now, and that in no way excuses all the other support abilities that have been ripped away from ranged players. It's not a stretch at all to say that you are far more supportive of the party in more then just rDPS on jobs like Red Mage, Summoner or even Monk then you are on Bard or Machinist.

[ssunny2008]

Snip

You missed my point somehow. I don´t want to argue about easy or not and the dps situation and i´ve said, that everyone get rewarded with a dead boss so. But how does phys. range give you the feeling of getting rewarded?

Lets be real. Imo there is not that much space to improve with a phys. range to get a "rewarded feeling". In case of DNC or BRD you do even rely on the performance of the other DPS to increase your rDPS. You don´t have stuff like TN, RoE, triplecast,a port to other party members or whatever to increase your DPS by playing well and using such tools.

So imagine you gonna be in line with the others in DPS. Imagine you get better or more raidbuffs / medigation. Maybe even a new feature with a skill to use in the end, but is that enough to "feel rewarded"?! For me it wouldn´t be enough.
The point is, you still play your rotation down without any real adjustments or the pressure by certain mechanics thanks to the high mobility, range and no casting times. A flat damage increase or more buttons wouldn´t be more like that to me. It´s not that i improved in some way, the devs just buffed the class with flat damage or some extra buttons i use on cd.

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.
As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

That means, phys. ranges would need a solid rework in my eyes with less mobility, requirements and stuff they need to care about. Not just another job specific tool where you press button X at limit Y. TP management wouldn´t be an issue too, it would just change the rotation a bit.
We need something where players can improve/adjust with and you can see a clear gap between beginners / mastered the class and bossfight. Otherwise such a thread will appear even after some buffs like "Yeah we´ve dps now, but the phys. ranges are still boring and unrewarding in some way."
An easy example could be distance-based damage. You´ve some tools where you need to get closer to the boss and some where you´ve to stay away. Atleast this would make use from the mobility and fit the classes in some way. For some mechanics you´ll get that dps-saving button like TN or TC, otherwise you´ve to adjust your rotation. But i would expect a lot of threads against such a requirement popping up immediately.

[Jirah]

snip

interesting read, regardless of what others may think Ranged is easy mode and the support isnt anywhere near as layered to compensate if they even have any. Disregarding the damage as thats always taken out of proportion and is very much a non issue and eve if they increased it nothing would really change, adding a few buttons wouldnt really diversify the job enough. idk why the ranged got lobotomized to this extent but perhaps a few restrictions are in order like trajectory or just a more layered kit

[CKNovel]

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.
As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

Focus is still on rDPS but anyway...

You can't be further from the truth. It seems you still think ranged have a magic shield that resolves mechanics for them. If we take your example and use active time rather than DPS. Not real numbers, but that's better to explain.
The difference between a beginner and Veteran melee could be 75% to 95%, the difference between a beginner and veteran ranged could be 85% to 95%. On top of that, a beginner savage melee will produce the same result as a veteran ranged
That's what I mean to "Skill floor" and "Skill ceiling", the beginner ranged will have an advantage over other beginner caster/melee, but veteran melee knows how to close that gap. Now the position is reversed and there is no way for ranged to close that gap. All because of mobility, if you remove that mobility, you cut the Skill floor from the beginners but it will barely change anything for veterans.

But no ranged will reach 99% uptime while learning, where the hell did you got that idea?
Ranged play the same game as you, learn the same mechanics as you, try to adapt their rotation the same as you. Easy example is summoning the Automaton Queen right before downtime.
There can be slip-up, correcting position which could mean missing GCDs, missing mechanics. Everyone can make a mistakes, any role, any jobs.
Have you ever heard your RL saying "Stop DPS, focus on mechanics"? That goes for everyone.

There is no magic shield on ranged, nor bots that resolves mechanics for you. (Technically, they exist but that's another problem for SQEX to fix)

[ssunny2008]

Snip

The focus tends more to the "own enjoyment and great feeling of self-improvement". (Getting rewarded for your own efforts.)

Yes everyone has to play the boss mechanics. But I´m not talking about those practice runs to see the boss mechanics. My example was about kills where poeple actually know what is coming. Of course noone will use a hard CD 5s right before downtime. That´s just dumb and not a hard adjustment either.

A lot of ppl obviously just want more DPS to be in line with the other classes. Or they want more support abilities, maybe a 2 second job gauge, whatever. But ask yourself, IS THIS ENOUGH? You might have a stronger class on paper, but the overall playstyle would be the same. It´s one thing to have bigger numbers or shields because a class got buffed or you wear better equipment. But it´s another if you´ve the same effect, because you played well around given restrictions, requirements or even boss RNG which are not just "press button X in moment Y".
What would be more enjoyable to you over time? The answer is easy for me. As long as phys. range has such a mobility without restrictions, it´ll be hard to find an original and well-designed deeper gameplay.
The perfect example is dancer. Dancing is new, original, fits the class, but it´s nothing but a gimmick and far away from having a deep impact on the gameplay or self-improvement. It would be another thing if you would´ve 3 different dances you´ve to remember by yourself and which grant something special in different situations like ninjutsu on NIN. The decision making from the player combined with a handful of skills to adjust to any circumstances last in "failed" or "well played with the reward of self-improvement and more dps". This is not really possible on phys. range classes thx to the core design and it´s actually the biggest issue to bring real enjoyment and the "happiness of getting better" over a long time.

[Rika007]

A lot of ppl obviously just want more DPS to be in line with the other classes. Or they want more support abilities, maybe a 2 second job gauge, whatever. But ask yourself, IS THIS ENOUGH?

I can 100% say, without any reservations, that if they literally just reset Bard back to what it had back in Stormblood, meaning I get back Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palisade, Nature's Minne on a faster cool down timer, and Trobadour that has the ability to change based off what song I'm playing, and Crit based procs, and then just scaled it's rDPS to be right below the contribution of a well played Ninja, Dragoon or Red Mage, that it would, in your words be 'ENOUGH' for me. I wouldn't even need the piercing debuff from Dragoon back, and flat out am ok losing the stuff Bard, 'gained' in Shadowbringers. And I'm sure plenty of Machinist mains would say the same about end of 3.X Heavensward Machinist. Don't pretend that you know what we would enjoy or be rewarded by. We already had the best versions of our jobs stripped away from us. We just want those back.

[ssunny2008]

I can 100% say, without any reservations, that if they literally just reset Bard back to what it had back in Stormblood, meaning I get back Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palisade, Nature's Minne on a faster cool down timer, and Trobadour that has the ability to change based off what song I'm playing, and Crit based procs, and then just scaled it's rDPS to be right below the contribution of a well played Ninja, Dragoon or Red Mage, that it would, in your words be 'ENOUGH' for me. I wouldn't even need the piercing debuff from Dragoon back, and flat out am ok losing the stuff Bard, 'gained' in Shadowbringers. And I'm sure plenty of Machinist mains would say the same about end of 3.X Heavensward Machinist. Don't pretend that you know what we would enjoy or be rewarded by. We already had the best versions of our jobs stripped away from us. We just want those back.

I don´t pretend and don´t know what you would enjoy. That´s why i´ve written "for me" in such statements and actually wanted to know, what do you really want?! But thx for your input, it´s actually more than just "more dps, more abilites". I can feel you a lot about such class changes, even if it´s more about tanks and melee dps in my case.

[Payotz]

So imagine you gonna be in line with the others in DPS. Imagine you get better or more raidbuffs / medigation. Maybe even a new feature with a skill to use in the end, but is that enough to "feel rewarded"?! For me it wouldn´t be enough.

It is. I do agree that MCH right now has literally NO gap between good MCHs and bad MCHs, but I disagree with BRD and DNC. There used to be a lot of nuance with BRD back in SB, and despite it being dumbed down by a lot in this expansion, the skill expression is still definitely there with proc/apex juggling. DNC's skill expression is definitely there with delaying your dances depending on procs, and making sure that your Dance still lines up by keeping track of GCDs you've delayed, not unlike how SAM adjusts their filler during downtime. If anything, your ideas about how braindead ranged physical is actually only applies to MCH. And if they're gonna reimplement gunmage, then that's fine with me.

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.

That's pretty much the nature of combat in this game, especially if you're in a static. Farm parties are the most boring shit ever. Advanced Relativity was only really hard during blind prog, and it just turns out that Advanced Relativity is just braindead easy post prog. The encounters are heavily scripted that the only job that gets varied gameplay in a highly optimized group is proc based jobs like BRD, DNC and jobs that depend on positioning like BLM. This is honestly a problem with 8 man content, not a ranged physical problem.

As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

The thing is, this isn't actually what's wrong with the role. You can do "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight" just fine with BRD/DNC. It actually takes a lot more brainpower to adjust GCDs on the fly for DNC and juggle procs as BRD, especially in a two target fight. Procs bring a lot of potential for optimization in encounters, you can say it's RNG, I say it's adapting on the fly. It's skill expression.

The main problem is that even with "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight" they're still on the bottom for dps without anything to answer as to "why". Physical Ranged mobility is useless in this tier and raid series. We all just stand in a clockwise position, and move once per minute for mechanics. The only real time I get disadvantaged in a fight as a BLM is during Lion's with no Tether. There's no mechanic that's specific for you to handle, like O11S Panto, that justifies Ranged Physical's movement. No add to kite around the arena. No AoEs that spawn on you. No Twister to bait on your position. No Mustard Bomb to bait away from the party. Nothing.

While I would like the rotation rework too(especially for MCH), I don't think that is the right answer for the role(but maybe for MCH). I think raid design, more utility based gameplay, and more optimization tools for the party is a lot better than the role's rotation being reworked for a 3rd time(except for MCH. I really hate ShB MCH).

[ssunny2008]

While I would like the rotation rework too(especially for MCH), I don't think that is the right answer for the role(but maybe for MCH). I think raid design, more utility based gameplay, and more optimization tools for the party is a lot better than the role's rotation being reworked for a 3rd time(except for MCH. I really hate ShB MCH).

Yeah raid design is a serious issue. To static and predictable. OT is there just to be there for the case or to take the 2nd TB. Healers can pretty much rotate with their healing abilities and a lot of bosses can be solo-healed. DPS just need to remember and try out to maximize their damage. But the difference for me lies still in the classes in some way. Playing melee or caster just eats more time in my case to maximize my performance especially with RNG mechanics. I´m way faster with phys. range dps.

I don´t know if i could be fine with bard and DNC. Procc depended gameplay is nothing deep for me. You just wait for the skill to show up or for the reset, otherwise you play 1-2-1-2 and hope to be lucky. On top of that i can´t see a really gap between good or bad players there too. It´s up a lot to RNG especially in burst phases with raidbuffs from DRG, MNK, AST... it can make a big difference if your songs or advanced abilites procc or not in such moments. And on top of that your rDPS relies more on other players than yourself. It´s a good thing in one way, i would love to see more group-stuff which are needed for boss dps-checks instead of being just that flat damage buff you press on cd. But to say "i´m a good bard/DNC" (DPS depended), you need a good group.

[Payotz]

I don´t know if i could be fine with bard and DNC. Procc depended gameplay is nothing deep for me. You just wait for the skill to show up or for the reset, otherwise you play 1-2-1-2 and hope to be lucky. On top of that i can´t see a really gap between good or bad players there too.

I think at this point we can't really argue subjectively about it. These really are your own views, so it's really just up to personal opinion whether you think it's easy or not.
I'm more of the opinion that static jobs (SAM, MCH, GNB, PLD, current MNK) are a lot less skill intensive than proc based jobs because you can pretty much just spend 5 mins on a practice dummy and burn it into your muscle memory to perform well in raid. Memorizing something is a lot easier than adjusting to RNG.

And on top of that your rDPS relies more on other players than yourself. It´s a good thing in one way, i would love to see more group-stuff which are needed for boss dps-checks instead of being just that flat damage buff you press on cd. But to say "i´m a good bard/DNC" (DPS depended), you need a good group.

There's nothing wrong with the job if you look at it from that perspective. It's just an issue with how "skill" is presented in FFlogs itself. Most people just look at rdps alone or adps alone as the end-all be-all of player skill when people should be looking at a LOT more factors when determining it. A mistake can very easily be erased by a lucky crit, A green parse can easily be explained by just low ilvl especially after week 8, and clear times also matter for pot timings and raid buff timings as the faster you clear, the more you need to rearrange pot timings so you don't lose usage.

RDPS is a failed metric if you just take a look at RDPS specifically. We all know this. Hell, DPS itself is a failed metric due to how high the differences between damage rolls in this game, especially with crit. We can really see this in how Bard was so sought after in pugs back in Stormblood. One of the main reason why Bard was meta in pugs back in the day was because there was no rdps split from normal DPS. It was just DPS. So people just started wanting more raid buffs, more Trick Attacks, more Battle Litanies. If rdps and adps was split from normal DPS back in SB, I assure you that MCH wouldn't be looked as "BRD but worse" in pugs at all.

So I don't think taking a look at just one metric ALONE is good for determining a player's value and a job's value. Even if you add the caveat of "I'm just a good BRD in terms of DPS", there's a lot more factors that build into that number.

This is honestly why I'm leaning towards clear times as a metric instead. But that would honestly not work in a pug setting, but that's a topic for another time.