The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[Lastelli]

Forgot we didn't mentionned SMN at all due to Melee focus.

I'd say current SMN is as mobile as HW MCH/BRD while bringing good support to the team.
The heal provided is not amazing, but it was enough to beat E4S with no healers and some Paladins.
Addle works almost everywhere, I believe.
Res is good for prog but there was always a ton of debate about res that shouldn't be taken in account in job balance.

The SMN is deeply flawed but still gets 40% of unpunishable instant casts. I believe that we spend more than 60% of current savage being static, when bosses are targetable.



Obviously the first reason is the nerf. And all melees received a buff
But I believe this tier is quite melee friendly, allowing melee to have an easier uptime and E11S is harder to gauge due to all the downtime. Jobs like NIN seems to enjoy these to refresh their cooldowns.

Yet, the SMN remains at a healthy spot. SQEX might have nerfed it a bit too much or they should have made a choice between buffing other jobs and nerfing the problematic one.
But it's still healthier than ranged.

SMN has approximately 55% of its GCDs instant, but most of these instant cast are fixed because of weaving purposes or they're locked behind the demi-primals. Comparing smn to phys ranged dps in terms of mobility is definitely wrong. I'd say both RDM and SMN are at a very good spot right now and pretty much equivalent both in rdps and mobility. The big elephant in the room is actually BLM, as even with the indirect nerf due to the weird itemization of the last patch, its still quite a bit more powerful in terms of rdps. My point was that metioning SMN as and exemple of perfect job is simply wrong now. It's outshined by all melees and BLM and the only reason it's still so popular is because most casters use it for prog instead of BLM and BLM has a totally different BIS, so casters just stick with what they started with.
Anyway, please don't compare current jobs to old jobs, it's really pointless. HW was also a time where balance was completely out of the window.

As for phys ranged, I still don't get the complain about rdps. Even if all three of them get buffed by 3-4%, nothing would really change. You'd still bring one and only one. Buff them too much, and you bring 2 instead of a melee, which is clearly what the devs don't want to see. I agree on the rest though. Phys ranged dps just feel too shallow, unrewarding, incomplete, as if you still need to unlock some major key skills that give some closure to their rotation. All of them. But rdps is not the reason for it.

[Jirah]

As for phys ranged, I still don't get the complain about rdps. Even if all three of them get buffed by 3-4%, nothing would really change. You'd still bring one and only one. Buff them too much, and you bring 2 instead of a melee, which is clearly what the devs don't want to see. I agree on the rest though. Phys ranged dps just feel too shallow, unrewarding, incomplete, as if you still need to unlock some major key skills that give some closure to their rotation. All of them. But rdps is not the reason for it.

You hit the nail right on the head for me on this! Idk what players want and i blame the community's tendency to be of one mind about stuff like this, example being popular opinions are treated as law SMN complicated, BRD too hard, MNK is the worst, BLM is the best, RDPS is super low. hearing that alot and youll start to believe it. The Jobs are in such a balanced state they'd need to do something drastic to inorder to break it. We dont need HW ranged bs as balance was a major issue and many roles were locked for those meta heads

[CKNovel]

As for phys ranged, I still don't get the complain about rdps. Even if all three of them get buffed by 3-4%, nothing would really change. You'd still bring one and only one. Buff them too much, and you bring 2 instead of a melee, which is clearly what the devs don't want to see. I agree on the rest though. Phys ranged dps just feel too shallow, unrewarding, incomplete, as if you still need to unlock some major key skills that give some closure to their rotation. All of them. But rdps is not the reason for it.

Yeah, HW and ShB have different balance and design, might not have been a good idea to compare different iterations.

It's not complex but not simple.
There's no reason to buff jobs and there's no reason to nerf jobs. All content are clearable with any comp. But that argument doesn't stop buffs either.
Jobs are chosen by gameplay. Ranged gameplay isn't great and their contribution is low.

The points is, a very good ranged is always less valuable than a good Melee/Caster.
rDPS alone is not the problem. The problem is that ranged contributes too little to the party due to support removal and rDPS removal.
If ranged were the god of support (not rDPS), I'd be definitely okay with the current rDPS. I mean, we lost dismantle... To be replaced with Tactician on 180s. I was really angry at that. And Peloton aswell, it should have been a free sprint for the team.

If SQEX handed me the wheel, I'd reduce that gap for sure. 600~700 rDPS bonus.
But I'd increase the utility:
-Tactician/Troubadour/Samba would get a bonus to healing receive or I'd reduce their cooldown.
-Peloton would be reworked, a short sprint that comes with shortened cast time for casters. A bit like Bahamut Trance.
-I'd bring back palisade and would rework it a bit. A damage reduction shared with the party. The less people are damaged, the more powerfull that reduction would be. Adaptable for tank buster/raidwide
-Refresh could be back and refill a portion of MP spent for healing/resurecting action. Even thought it might be useless with current healing design. It could be a res on 300s cooldown.

All of this is useless since we're not getting new savages/ultimate for this expansion, but that was just a bunch of idea. If mobility keeps being the main argument, then I want ranged to contribute for mobility.
If ranged had an incredible amount of tool to support the party, you can gut their DPS all you want. But right now they're just boring.

[ssunny2008]

Phys ranged dps just feel too shallow, unrewarding, incomplete, as if you still need to unlock some major key skills that give some closure to their rotation. All of them. But rdps is not the reason for it.

I don´t want to arque about the dmg thing again, just saying somewhat.

Why does playing a phys. range should be some kind of rewarding?

Yes, you learn the class, your play rotation, you play the boss mechanics, you kill the boss. But that´s a thing to any class and the reward is the loot.

You don´t do anything else on phys. range than this. It doesn´t matter which boss you face or if the boss is casting an aoe directly in your face. It doesn´t matter if you have to go on range or melee distance. It doesn´t matter if you´ve to stack or spread. And it doesn´t matter on which position you are.
All what you do is to press some buttons in the same rotation and this at any boss you´re facing. There is nothing special, nothing to adjust, maybe that RNG procc you´ve to take care about, but that´s all.

I can just come again with my monk example. I´m a decent player with IL 527 right now on this class and E9s is like pain to play. I killed the boss multiple times but was like "that´s not enough" and i used my brain and adjusted to several mechanics in my own way. My dps increased about 1,5-2k. This was my personal reward, because i tried something new, i adjusted, and i died for the greed here and there before i reached that point.
That´s a thing to all caster and melee classes, more or less. You´ve to greed, you´ve to adjust, you´ve to make short decisions about skills like "SSS or Formshift or GCD + 1 chakra or, or, or..." as example on MNK. And when you missed the start, clipped a GCD or the tank turned the boss, things can go nuts.
Of course it´s not hard to get used to all that stuff for good players. But that´s it, you get rewarded in DPS for all the improvements you do on your own and those are different from fight to fight, mechanic to mechanic. Phys. range can´t improve in any way. They just play their rotation straight up down in every fight. No wonder they get stale pretty fast and feel unrewarding.

So again, for what should phys. range getting rewarded in some way, when there is like 0 depth or needed adjustments in their kit? Personally i could max out my DPS on phys. range at any fight pretty fast as long as i´ve played the mechanics down once. That´s not possible with the other classes. I´ll practice, i´ll greed and i´ll die until i found the perfect second or position to do whatever is needed.

(And before someone takes that in a bad mind... i´m up for any deeper gameplay. But with the addition of some new major skills without casting times, positionals or any real requirements, things won´t change. You´ll just have some new buttons, but still that high mobility class with the same rotation each fight, which enjoyment in fights actually depends more on the boss mechanics than the class itself. I can´t see DPS as the answer to actual enjoyment for a longer period of time either.)

[Kabooa]

Why does playing a phys. range should be some kind of rewarding?

You spent all of the monk positional thread pointing out why Monk needs to have them.

You should have no issue understanding why other players want more depth to the class so that the time spent on it doesn't feel like it will be better spent on another.

[ssunny2008]

You spent all of the monk positional thread pointing out why Monk needs to have them.

You should have no issue understanding why other players want more depth to the class so that the time spent on it doesn't feel like it will be better spent on another.

Please read until the end, especially the (...) part before you claim such stuff to me. Things won´t change with 1 or 2 more buttons or just a flat DPS increase. That´s my point.

[Rika007]

I don´t want to arque about the dmg thing again, just saying somewhat.

Why does playing a phys. range should be some kind of rewarding?

.Snip.

So again, for what should phys. range getting rewarded in some way, when there is like 0 depth or needed adjustments in their kit? Personally i could max out my DPS on phys. range at any fight pretty fast as long as i´ve played the mechanics down once. That´s not possible with the other classes. I´ll practice, i´ll greed and i´ll die until i found the perfect second or position to do whatever is needed.

Speaking as a former Physical ranged main who shaped over to caster for an entire expansion worth of savage content? This take is honestly just insulting.

1) Regardless of 'ease of use', ALL players deserve to feel rewarded for playing their job at a high level, this isn't negotiable, just hard truth. If a job doesn't feel rewarding to play for a vast majority of those players, then that is a failure of no one else's but the the dev teams. Ranged Dps, healers, casters, doesn't matter. If the job isn't rewarding to play, that is a failure, regardless of role.

2) Ranged DPS is not some brain dead job and stop advocating like it is. I've done this entire expansion on caster after doing the previous two expansions on Bard. I don't use anymore ounce of Brainpower on Summoner now then I did on Bard during Stormblood. There seems to be this fallacy that ranged players get to just sit out in the middle of no where, without a concern in the world about any mechanics, completely ignoring that any fight that requires more then a pulse will insure that the ranged player is stuck right next to the boss, doing all mechanics just like any of the melee's and casters do. If you are not then more then likely you are getting yelled at by healers to get back in closer.

Yes they don't have cast times, or positionals to worry about (although these days, melee positionals are a joke compared to what they used to be back in 2.0 and 3.0), so being a little bit lower makes sense, but no where near the gap there is now, and that in no way excuses all the other support abilities that have been ripped away from ranged players. It's not a stretch at all to say that you are far more supportive of the party in more then just rDPS on jobs like Red Mage, Summoner or even Monk then you are on Bard or Machinist.

[ssunny2008]

Snip

You missed my point somehow. I don´t want to argue about easy or not and the dps situation and i´ve said, that everyone get rewarded with a dead boss so. But how does phys. range give you the feeling of getting rewarded?

Lets be real. Imo there is not that much space to improve with a phys. range to get a "rewarded feeling". In case of DNC or BRD you do even rely on the performance of the other DPS to increase your rDPS. You don´t have stuff like TN, RoE, triplecast,a port to other party members or whatever to increase your DPS by playing well and using such tools.

So imagine you gonna be in line with the others in DPS. Imagine you get better or more raidbuffs / medigation. Maybe even a new feature with a skill to use in the end, but is that enough to "feel rewarded"?! For me it wouldn´t be enough.
The point is, you still play your rotation down without any real adjustments or the pressure by certain mechanics thanks to the high mobility, range and no casting times. A flat damage increase or more buttons wouldn´t be more like that to me. It´s not that i improved in some way, the devs just buffed the class with flat damage or some extra buttons i use on cd.

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.
As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

That means, phys. ranges would need a solid rework in my eyes with less mobility, requirements and stuff they need to care about. Not just another job specific tool where you press button X at limit Y. TP management wouldn´t be an issue too, it would just change the rotation a bit.
We need something where players can improve/adjust with and you can see a clear gap between beginners / mastered the class and bossfight. Otherwise such a thread will appear even after some buffs like "Yeah we´ve dps now, but the phys. ranges are still boring and unrewarding in some way."
An easy example could be distance-based damage. You´ve some tools where you need to get closer to the boss and some where you´ve to stay away. Atleast this would make use from the mobility and fit the classes in some way. For some mechanics you´ll get that dps-saving button like TN or TC, otherwise you´ve to adjust your rotation. But i would expect a lot of threads against such a requirement popping up immediately.

[Jirah]

snip

interesting read, regardless of what others may think Ranged is easy mode and the support isnt anywhere near as layered to compensate if they even have any. Disregarding the damage as thats always taken out of proportion and is very much a non issue and eve if they increased it nothing would really change, adding a few buttons wouldnt really diversify the job enough. idk why the ranged got lobotomized to this extent but perhaps a few restrictions are in order like trajectory or just a more layered kit

[CKNovel]

It might be ok in the beginning, you´re gonna be happy with bigger numbers, more tools and you might feel more useful to the party or whatever. But what happens with some time? It would getting stale pretty fast.
As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

Focus is still on rDPS but anyway...

You can't be further from the truth. It seems you still think ranged have a magic shield that resolves mechanics for them. If we take your example and use active time rather than DPS. Not real numbers, but that's better to explain.
The difference between a beginner and Veteran melee could be 75% to 95%, the difference between a beginner and veteran ranged could be 85% to 95%. On top of that, a beginner savage melee will produce the same result as a veteran ranged
That's what I mean to "Skill floor" and "Skill ceiling", the beginner ranged will have an advantage over other beginner caster/melee, but veteran melee knows how to close that gap. Now the position is reversed and there is no way for ranged to close that gap. All because of mobility, if you remove that mobility, you cut the Skill floor from the beginners but it will barely change anything for veterans.

But no ranged will reach 99% uptime while learning, where the hell did you got that idea?
Ranged play the same game as you, learn the same mechanics as you, try to adapt their rotation the same as you. Easy example is summoning the Automaton Queen right before downtime.
There can be slip-up, correcting position which could mean missing GCDs, missing mechanics. Everyone can make a mistakes, any role, any jobs.
Have you ever heard your RL saying "Stop DPS, focus on mechanics"? That goes for everyone.

There is no magic shield on ranged, nor bots that resolves mechanics for you. (Technically, they exist but that's another problem for SQEX to fix)