!! Fix Healer Rescue

[Packetdancer]

^ While this seems incredibly complicated for what is a simple role action, it does what you set out to do.

The main reason it's complicated in the writeup is that status effects in this game are great at proccing new status effects, but so far as I can observe really terrible at conditional timers. So the most straightforward way to have an "if you take avoidable damage within 10 seconds of the attempted Rescue which leads to your death within 20 seconds of the attempted Rescue" type of condition on the rez effect is really the chained debuffs/buffs that proc off of each other, even if that ends up working out to actually be "if you take avoidable damage within 10 seconds of the attempted Rescue, which leads to your death within 10 seconds of that damage" (sort of akin to how Living Dead procs Walking Dead). :|

(If there's a good way to simplify that which I've overlooked, it probably should be simplified, yes. Maybe do away with the Salvation Offered buff, and just make it so anyone can benefit from the Second Chance buff; then it doesn't have to be the healer who attempted Rescue who gets the person up at reduced rate and freebie instant-cast, it could also be their co-healer, or even the SMN or RDM.)

[Goji1639]

If the cost of rezzing is the big concern then yes, it can be worked around.

Hell, why not just make it so a blocked Rescue makes Revive cost no mana for 10 seconds. Then particularly clever Healers can use the toggle as a mechanic to save themselves mana in an emergency, and will have a beneficial reason to pay attention to who has the toggle on and who doesn't. Statics can even strategically plan to have certain players start the fight with Rescue off so they can be used as Revive buffers.

It would be powerful but doesn't really strike me as being broken. It's just a solid reward for situational awareness. We don't really have to overcomplicate it by trying to counteract the benefits; just make this a flat Healer buff.

[Packetdancer]

Hell, why not just make it so a blocked Rescue makes Revive cost no mana for 10 seconds. Then particularly clever Healers can use the toggle as a mechanic to save themselves mana in an emergency, and will have a beneficial reason to pay attention to who has it on and who doesn't. Statics can even strategically plan to have certain players start the fight with Rescue off so they can be used as Revive buffers.

This could prove powerful enough that folks start insisting on using it during savage prog and such. That's too much cheese in all honesty, and has far larger balance implications.

In my proposal there's still benefit to the healer, as attempting a Rescue will either save the person if they don't have Rescue blocked or if they do and die as a result, it will make getting them back upright less onerous. But the benefit only applies if the specific person rejecting a Rescue dies within a short window after that Rescue (i.e., within a window where you could reasonably assume the Rescue might have saved them), thus mitigating cheese. I can't just have someone who has Rescue off and then attempt to Rescue them so that I can instantly and freely raise some other third party.

Of course, that still leaves it open to cheese where someone goes "well, I usually die during this mechanic; I'll just block Rescue, the healer can try to rescue me, and then when I die it's just cheaper and faster to get me back up". Hence the Brink of Death versus Weakness on rez to discourage that; we do want to make sure that turning off Rescue isn't just a no-consequence path to cheaper rezzes.

(Mind you, if it's someone who dies repeatedly in a given fight and so probably has Brink of Death there anyway? Yes, at that point you could still cheese it for a cheaper rez in comparison. But that seems niche enough not to be overpowered or unbalancing, nor likely to be widely used as a cheese method.)

And for people who know what they're doing and don't want to be repositioned—which, according to most previous threads on this topic, is how the majority of folks who want to disable Rescue classify themselves—there's no added penalty for them; they reposition before the damage goes off and don't die within that window, thus aren't going to be rezzed and receive the higher-penalty rez debuff. From their point of view, they just get to turn off Rescue without any apparent side effects or cost.

[Goji1639]

I'm not too familiar with Savage raids, so I can't say to what extent turning Rescue into a free revive buff would break them. There's almost always a simple solution to issues like this, though.

Like, for instance, you could turn the Rescue off toggle into something that only works in DF, or simply leave it out of whatever the most current prog content is. The problems that people have with Rescue; it being a troll button, incompetent use, etc. aren't really issues for statics running prog anyways. These are issues that are almost exclusively limited to PuGs.

Not to say that your idea wouldn't work, I just feel it's unnecessary to put much effort into 'balancing' this. If this ends up making Healers considerably more versatile in their ability to res then good for them.

[Doozer]

The problems that people have with Rescue; it being a troll button,

There are plenty of things people do in-game that can be used to troll, but those things don't get removed or modified. Players are encouraged to do things like blacklist (if relevant) or submit a report. If someone is using Rescue to troll you, report them instead of ruining the usefulness of it for everyone. Plenty of other things in the game are used to troll, grief, or harass people, that doesn't mean the entire game needs to bend around them. Report them for causing you problems and move on. If it's not worth your time to report them, clearly it's not that big of an issue to you.

People get reported and disciplined for spamming skills in cities, but that doesn't mean the game is changed so no one can use any combat skills in hub areas. Sure you can turn off visual effects, but for some of them the sound is the worst part, which can't be toggled. So, instead, those people can be reported. Get it? There's already a solution: Report them if they troll you.

[hydralus]

People get reported and disciplined for spamming skills in cities, but that doesn't mean the game is changed so no one can use any combat skills in hub areas.[/B]

That'd be fine by me if they changed that, too. In fact it seems like a pretty simple fix.

[Packetdancer]

I'm not too familiar with Savage raids, so I can't say to what extent turning Rescue into a free revive buff would break them. There's almost always a simple solution to issues like this, though.

Like, for instance, you could turn the Rescue off toggle into something that only works in DF, or simply leave it out of whatever the most current prog content is. The problems that people have with Rescue; it being a troll button, incompetent use, etc. aren't really issues for statics running prog anyways. These are issues that are almost exclusively limited to PuGs.

Out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask why you don't like the proposed solution? I feel like it actually addresses all the points in this thread.

1. DPS who dislike being repositioned because they are capable of avoiding the damage themselves can reject Rescues. As they will not die, there is literally no consequence for their doing so.
2. Healers who use Rescue to avoid having to spend 2400 MP on someone they can otherwise save will still get a lower-cost rez if someone they could've saved turns down that save and then dies.
3. Given that even a failed Rescue benefits a healer, it no longer is necessary to check if someone's got an indicator that they can't be Rescued; no additional mental tax on healers by adding One More Thing to maintain situational awareness of.
4. The benefit of a lower-cost instant rez is counterbalanced by a higher rez penalty, meaning that it's not a path leading to a mountain of free cheese. And the higher rez penalty is one already present in all content, thus one we know the devs feel is balanced.

As for restricting it so it only works 'in DF content', I assume you mean 'content where any one person is eligible for commendations at the end' (i.e., PUGs). Because even Extreme/Savage/Ultimate stuff is queued into via the Duty Finder (albeit under the High End Duties tab); it's just that in NA/EU situations, you will nearly always do so by assembling a full group in Party Finder first. (It's also worth noting that in Japan, they use Duty Finder matching even on Extreme and Savage, and the game is designed with the expectation that people are doing so, so you will have people eligible for commends at the end; the Party Finder prerequisite is purely a social construct within the NA/EU datacenters.)

But I think that's sort of irrelevant; I literally see no reason that this solution couldn't be applied globally. It both addresses what you're asking for ("I don't want to be Rescued, ever") and the concerns of myself and other healers, and does so in what I think is a balanced manner that should work out fine in both PUG/roulette scenarios and even in statics if you have that one DPS who insists on greeding and hates being Rescued out at the last second.

You say there's a simple solution to "issues like this", but so far as I can see, there's literally not an issue with the proposed method of disabling Rescue. Thus, nothing in need of further solution, simple or otherwise.

[Goji1639]

There are plenty of things people do in-game that can be used to troll, but those things don't get removed or modified. Players are encouraged to do things like blacklist (if relevant) or submit a report. If someone is using Rescue to troll you, report them instead of ruining the usefulness of it for everyone. Plenty of other things in the game are used to troll, grief, or harass people, that doesn't mean the entire game needs to bend around them. Report them for causing you problems and move on. If it's not worth your time to report them, clearly it's not that big of an issue to you.

People get reported and disciplined for spamming skills in cities, but that doesn't mean the game is changed so no one can use any combat skills in hub areas. Sure you can turn off visual effects, but for some of them the sound is the worst part, which can't be toggled. So, instead, those people can be reported. Get it? There's already a solution: Report them if they troll you.

Report what exactly? Unless they're kind enough to clearly state in chat for the GMs that they were being malicious, not much anyone can do. It's not against the rules to just make a lot of "mistakes" with one of your abilities.

Also, the other problem is incompetent use of Rescue, which can be just as annoying.

Snip

I just don't really see the need to "balance" this for the content it's intended for. For simplicity sake I'd rather just turn it into a flat buff that negates the potential negative impact a blocked Rescue might have on the Healer. Revive becomes free is just a bit less convoluted than a lot of 'this if he lives, that if he dies after a certain amount of time, etc.'

But like I said, I'm not really against your idea.

[Doozer]

Report what exactly? Unless they're kind enough to clearly state in chat for the GMs that they were being malicious, not much anyone can do. It's not against the rules to just make a lot of "mistakes" with one of your abilities.

I don't know how to explain to you that you need to learn how to communicate with others like a normal person. Let me act out a scenario for you so you understand it better:

Healer: *Rescues you*
You: Can you please not do that? I find it to be disruptive and unnecessary.
[Later]
Healer: *Rescues you again*
You: I've asked you to stop. If you continue I'll report you for griefing/trolling.
Healer: *Rescues you a third time*

After this point, you would be justified in reporting them after the duty is complete. You're right, a person rescuing you with no other communication does not have enough evidence to report. Equally, it does not have enough evidence to prove they were actually trolling you. Maybe they were "incompetent", but trying to help you and failing is not an affront to you. A single person making a single mistake does not warrant completely changing a skill and the dynamic of PUG play. Unless it's way more widely used as trolling like you claim, in which case, take matters into your own hands. Set your boundaries, and if they don't respect them, report them. Did no one teach you this growing up?

For reference when you report them (because you'll do that if it really bothers you), this sort of behaviour would fall under "obstruction of play", because it's preventing you from playing like you normally would, since you say it disrupts your ability to perform skills and participate in the duty.

I'm giving you advice. This is not a debate. Learn how to handle when things that you don't like happen to you, instead of demanding the world around you be moulded to your liking. Taking action against people causing you grief is a much more realistic approach than the entire game being changed for a handful of people that are sensitive about someone interacting with them.

[Goji1639]

I don't know how to explain to you that you need to learn how to communicate with others like a normal person. Let me act out a scenario for you so you understand it better:

Healer: *Rescues you*
You: Can you please not do that? I find it to be disruptive and unnecessary.
[Later]
Healer: *Rescues you again*
You: I've asked you to stop. If you continue I'll report you for griefing/trolling.
Healer: *Rescues you a third time*

After this point, you would be justified in reporting them after the duty is complete. You're right, a person rescuing you with no other communication does not have enough evidence to report. Equally, it does not have enough evidence to prove they were actually trolling you. Maybe they were "incompetent", but trying to help you and failing is not an affront to you. A single person making a single mistake does not warrant completely changing a skill and the dynamic of PUG play. Unless it's way more widely used as trolling like you claim, in which case, take matters into your own hands. Set your boundaries, and if they don't respect them, report them. Did no one teach you this growing up?

For reference when you report them (because you'll do that if it really bothers you), this sort of behaviour would fall under "obstruction of play", because it's preventing you from playing like you normally would, since you say it disrupts your ability to perform skills and participate in the duty.

I'm giving you advice. This is not a debate. Learn how to handle when things that you don't like happen to you, instead of demanding the world around you be moulded to your liking. Taking action against people causing you grief is a much more realistic approach than the entire game being changed for a handful of people that are sensitive about someone interacting with them.

So, basically spend the whole run getting yanked around while politely asking them to stop, report them at the end, and then nothing happens because you still can't prove it was malicious. Hell, if I was the Healer I'd just say "Sorry I keep accidentally hitting that hotkey," in chat before the run ends. There you go, hard evidence it wasn't malicious.

Also, incompetent use of the ability is a more frequent thing and still annoying. There's zero reason not to address it.

I'm not sure why you're so against them adding something simple to address this problematic ability... Do you believe it would seriously set their development team back? Do you have reason to believe they're going to drag you into their offices and make you code it? Or are you just kinda pissy for no real reason?