6.0 Story Speculations

[Fenral]

They were, in fact, not rolled into one.

I've played FFIII on the Famicom and DS. The one big thing that was lost in translation is that G'raha directly quoted Desch ("This is my destiny!"), along with copying his whole forgotten-destiny -> ultimate sacrifice shtick. The runaround he gives you while you're collecting the crystals is meant as a reference to that time you had to track Desch down to get the Frog Mini spell. (I am being silly in insisting we need a whole frog level.) Basically, Ishikawa took the broad strokes of the Tower of Owen story and transplanted them onto a different tower, in order to set up an ally who we would all but forget until he bailed us out in a later storyline, the way Desch did.


The Salina name drop in 2.5 was meant to clue people (mostly Japanese people, since FFIII is a beloved classic on the level of Dragon Quest) in to the Desch connection, and the ancestor!Desch thing is ascended fanon (in addition to being incredibly confusing for the reasons above). Doga and Unei were actually serving dual purposes as expies of themselves and the Gulgans, cluing not-Desch in on the destiny he "forgot." Except this one involved forced memory alteration, which is a completely different can of ethical worms the writers have decided not to revisit.

[Vyrerus]

I've played FFIII on the Famicom and DS. The one big thing that was lost in translation is that G'raha directly quoted Desch ("This is my destiny!"), along with copying his whole forgotten-destiny -> ultimate sacrifice shtick. The runaround he gives you while you're collecting the crystals is meant as a reference to that time you had to track Desch down to get the Frog Mini spell. (I am being silly in insisting we need a whole frog level.) Basically, Ishikawa took the broad strokes of the Tower of Owen story and transplanted them onto a different tower, in order to set up an ally who we would all but forget until he bailed us out in a later storyline, the way Desch did.


The Salina name drop in 2.5 was meant to clue people (mostly Japanese people, since FFIII is a beloved classic on the level of Dragon Quest) in to the Desch connection, and the ancestor!Desch thing is ascended fanon (in addition to being incredibly confusing for the reasons above). Doga and Unei were actually serving dual purposes as expies of themselves and the Gulgans, cluing not-Desch in on the destiny he "forgot." Except this one involved forced memory alteration, which is a completely different can of ethical worms the writers have decided not to revisit.

Idk man, it's a little too broad if you ask me. I think they would have honed in on it more, if it were that direct. And I would never forget those lips.

Neat trivia about FFIII though. Wasn't sure about its status in Japan. I've only played the NES version with translation patch on roms. Couldn't get into the 3-D remake cause well.. I think they look kinda goofy.

Also it'll be kinda sad if we never get a proper Gulgan reference. I mean, they were ultimately just some exposition circle, but so was the Circle of Sages in Final Fantasy, and they got a more direct reference!

I wonder how many more ethical questions we can raise with stuff done to G'rahas body, mind, and soul.

[Lyth]

I think that if Pandaemonium has a standard dungeon attached, it has more potential to be an explorable area. Although the dungeon preview was playing the Tower of Zot music, so it might be something different.

One thing that I would love to see is a wing based raid design where you can change boss order around a bit. The first two fights of a tier are usually of similar difficulty, so you could have it such that you clear them in any order before proceeding to the last two.

Either way, I'd be more than happy with an explorable zone akin to ARR/Heavensward, as opposed to the current boss rush setup. Have Rowena setup a tent at the base as that lone persistant merchant who always manages to randomly show up to sell you stuff in the final dungeon, even if it's in some obscure extra-dimensional location.

I'd be happy enough for FFIV's Four Fiends to show up, but they'd need to flesh them out plotwise throughout next expansion. I'm a bit less fond of homages that don't have any setup to them. Sartauvoir could have been a nice Rubicante tie in, if they had kept him.

...

If Zenos is taking up the Reaper job, I would guess that there is another malevolent voidsent force at his side as his Avatar. Could be Fandaniel, but there's another possibility.

It's worth noting that most of the central antagonists in the past few expansions are also linked to him through Shinryu, a being of pure violence, as an amalgamation of their mutual hatred for you and Eorzea. Some of that is bound to have rubbed off on him, if not... possessed him?

Zenos is probably more than just Zenos at this point. The Resonant bit put Zenos on even footing with Azem's partially unsundered form, but we've probably done more than our fair share to power him up further by leaving a trail of vengeful spirits in our wake.

Besides, gotta find a way to deliver that 'We are the hatred of Zenos... We... are Zeromus!' line. End it with a Big Bang, so to speak.

So many broken by this world, and then by you.

Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands with the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear.

It's not surprising that Myste springs to mind, as a manifestation of Ilberd's memory pops up there as well. But our answer remains the same now, as it did then.

'Justice deserves no less.'

[JeanneOrnitier]

Little thing but I kind of hope Reaper originates from Sil'dih. There's a Mhach connection there for the voidsent, tons of Sil'dih zombies in Thanalan for the undead, and I've always wanted more Sil'dih lore.

[Fenral]

And I would never forget those lips.

I never said it was a good plan, or meant to imply that it worked. Even if we leave out the whole "first major male Miqo'te NPC ever" thing, the entire story was a series of war crimes against Conservation of Detail. With how much as the early story (post-CT) loved leaning on the crutch of "Allagan tech is too advanced for us," it was inevitable that G'raha's legend would live on. (Also, the lips. See: Fanfest 2019.)

I wonder how many more ethical questions we can raise with stuff done to G'rahas body, mind, and soul.

Let's see... patrilineal trait passed on to the not-necessarily-firstborn son, given to a race widely known for not having lots of sons. Fate of the world, wish of the Ancients, blah blah blah. Yeah, that's sexual slavery.

Inherited memories carried by said trait, apparently in the first-person, that the inheritor may mistake for their own. Brainwashing, anyone?

Oh, and it causes headaches when unable to activate properly. That's straight-up coercion. Even once the pain is made to stop, there's bound to be some sort of lingering Pavlovian influence keeping him in line.

All of that leads to G'raha sealing himself in carbonite for possibly forever. Yeah, that was 100% his choice. /s

Honestly, considering the s[kupo]t Salina put his entire bloodline through, the soul vessel thing is kinda small potatoes. That's a situation closer to ERASED or Tokyo Revengers. More of a New Game+, but from a checkpoint like in NieR, and with the bonus that he's properly aware of it.

(I cannot stress enough, the above is JUST FOR FUN. No criticism is intended.)

[Vyrerus]

'Justice deserves no less.'

I liked the second option, "I tire of this charade." Though if I were given my own write in, I woulda gone with, "Spare me this mockery of justice."

As far as Zenos and Reaper go... well I don't think he's taken up Reaper, just a scythe and it's magitek at that. Like Nero's hammer but with an edge. Much like his appeal for katanas it's taken up for its aesthetic rather than techniques associated with it. Zenos is never shown to perform anything resembling Far Eastern sword techniques save the anime-esque ones in the Shadowbringers trailer/intro (And as we know now that's actually Elidibutt).

And truth be told his techniques like, "Lightless Flame" and Concentravitity fit a scythe much more than a katana. Though I think Zenos's combat style is most emphasized by his tank buster, "Unmoving Troika." A Troika is a Russian sleigh drawn by three horses. Not sure what the move is called in Japanese, but it implies that he swings his sword with much more force than finesse, and you can even dodge the final two swings of it if you step behind him.

I do wonder if we'll get some warm up rounds with him this time around, or if we'll only get the final showdown.

[Vyrerus]

I never said it was a good plan, or meant to imply that it worked. Even if we leave out the whole "first major male Miqo'te NPC ever" thing, the entire story was a series of war crimes against Conservation of Detail. With how much as the early story (post-CT) loved leaning on the crutch of "Allagan tech is too advanced for us," it was inevitable that G'raha's legend would live on. (Also, the lips. See: Fanfest 2019.)


Let's see... patrilineal trait passed on to the not-necessarily-firstborn son, given to a race widely known for not having lots of sons. Fate of the world, wish of the Ancients, blah blah blah. Yeah, that's sexual slavery.

Inherited memories carried by said trait, apparently in the first-person, that the inheritor may mistake for their own. Brainwashing, anyone?

Oh, and it causes headaches when unable to activate properly. That's straight-up coercion. Even once the pain is made to stop, there's bound to be some sort of lingering Pavlovian influence keeping him in line.

All of that leads to G'raha sealing himself in carbonite for possibly forever. Yeah, that was 100% his choice. /s

Honestly, considering the s[kupo]t Salina put his entire bloodline through, the soul vessel thing is kinda small potatoes. That's a situation closer to ERASED or Tokyo Revengers. More of a New Game+, but from a checkpoint like in NieR, and with the bonus that he's properly aware of it.

(I cannot stress enough, the above is JUST FOR FUN. No criticism is intended.)

Poor G'raha. No wonder he just wants to have some lighthearted adventures with his hero. It's the one thing his lineage cannot taint.

[Lyth]

You're right. It very well could just be a scythe (maybe he's a Botanist?)

I think there are quite a few hurdles in the way of making Zenos an effective villain for this next expansion. He's not particularly charismatic (Emet) or hateable (Ilberd). He's not cunning enough to be a schemer, and not unpredictable enough to be convincingly insane. He's also just not intimidating. We've beaten him enough times in recurring boss fights that he's almost the equivalent of Seifer or the Turks in this game. More midboss than final boss. Shadowbringers was a bit essential in this regard to give us a break from his character and give him time to do some training montages and practice his Sharingan- ...er, I mean Resonant techniques. But he needs more than that if he wants to enter the ring against the Convocation's maverick, partially powered up or not. Gaining Garlean-engineered fake Ascian status isn't going to cut it. Otherwise, what's the motivation in going to the moon to get a McGuffin to beat him with?

He also needs to make this fight personal. A lot of the really good Final Fantasy villains usually do something to properly incur your wrath before they go about ascending into godhood and creating a World of Ruin. Again, vandalizing property with fireballs doesn't really cut it.

That's why I think that he just needs a bit of guidance, from some of the better villains that we've encountered in the story thus far. Nothing like having Mephistopheles sitting on your shoulder goading you to further heights of badness, and a Reaper voidsent Avatar would do just the trick. It would also make for a great council fight concept, and after being pleasantly surprised with how slickly they pulled off the Menenius/Lyon tag team in Bozja, I'd really like to see these team based match-ups as the baseline rather than the exception in actual raids. You could even throw in a Possession meter and have the two merge to burst down a single tank or split to cause an enmity reset. You could do some pretty sneaky fight design tricks with this.

The other option is to do a bait and switch. Perhaps the real final villain shows up, eats Zenos, and you fight them instead. Alternatively, the real final villain shows up, you befriend Zenos, and you go after the final boss together. Or perhaps you beat Zenos, then Hydaelyn calls your linkpearl to tell you to come to the Waking Sands yet again, and you fight her as the real last boss in an effort to keep your texting/teleportation charges to a minimum. But I think those are less compelling options overall. Might as well commit all the way to Zenos at this point rather than bailing out in the last moment.

[Vyrerus]

Final Fantasy villains usually do something to properly incur your wrath before they go

I'm honestly, truthfully hoping that Zenos winds up killing Y'shtola this time around. Last time he got her to sit down for all of the 4.0 bit, but this time she'll be in the grave. Can you imagine how upset so many people would be with him? It'd also follow her pattern of her death flirtations coming in identically across expansions. Two dips in the Lifestream, no big deal. Two lacerations via Zenos? *rubs hands together* No Emet-selch to pull you back this time, and possibly the Scions and WoL not being with her either as it seems the Scions will be globe trotting separately.

Then again, I don't think Square has the balls to kill her. Kind of a shame, really. Maybe they'll surprise me.

As far as tag team boss battles go, I'm hoping for the Magus Sisters to be an atypical fight requiring 3 tanks in an 8 man party. It won't happen, but a man can dream.

[Lyth]

I'm not really sure if that really achieves anything, though. If one of the Scions takes it on themselves to solo pull Zenos, well, that's probably on them. I think that if you wanted to do this, you're better off having Fourchenault pull a Teledji style coup and tie him and Sharlayan to the Lambs of Dalamud or some such. I think that the most impactful deaths are the ones that, in theory and in hindsight, we could have prevented. It's that Gwen Stacy effect.

Otherwise, you're just putting a developed character with potential on the bus for no real gain. Think back to your reactions from earlier in the game. There have been a few important character deaths to this point, but there's really one major one that everyone remembers.

A three boss council fight is easily doable, although adding a third tank is not really practical from a queuing perspective. You either need a boss that 'tags in' for one of the other two at set intervals, or is AI controlled rather than actively tanked (although tanks had have relatively little real control over boss movement anyways in these last two expansions).