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  1. #51
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    One way to increase the healing/DPS ratio in favor of healing without having to reduce "mistake space" for casual players or new healers is adding in more cleansable debuffs. We have Esuna right? Why don't we use it?

    More fights could benefit from doing things like spreading a DPS Down debuff on the party--one that ultimately equates to more DPS gained from removing it than using selfish DPS. If this were done, it's important that the fight would need to be scaled around the notion that the debuff will NOT be cleansed, meaning players who are using their "mistake space" to catch up aren't feeling threatened by even more damage.

    There's also something to be said about adding in Dispel as a Role Action and including buffs that can be removed to speed up the fight. What if more bosses are applying regens and shields to themselves that you can remove with Dispel? Again, if it's assumed the players will need to deal with this for DPS checks, then it adds a layer of DPS contribution in a support-oriented way that experienced healers will benefit from that won't necessarily punish learning healers.
    (7)

  2. #52
    Player
    hythrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Kyahre Hythrain
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Irenia View Post
    snip
    I've certainly been trying to keep this in mind. I've consistently been trying to be mindful of that spare DPS time to be used for mistakes, which is why I didn't suggest a more harsh ratio like 90/10 (something I am far more familiar with due to my old WoW experience).

    That said, if we're talking end-game Savage content then casual players don't matter. They're not the ones doing it, at least not until later on when they're a lot better geared for it. This is where I think we should see that 75/25 healing ratio. In casual gameplay, we can let it slip a bit more, but we don't want to exceed a certain amount.

    There are two main obstacles to me: the first is the fact that healer is the only job in FF14 that has a third task to do (DPS, arena watching, healing, making it possibly the hardest role in the game. Yet people can level a summoner to 80, decide they wanna go Scholar and bam; they're a Scholar at level 80. We're opening more of this problem with Sage, because now ANYONE who has hit 70 can just... start healing. When you allow this, you're forced to keep a low skill floor at that level. Healing is the one job that nobody should be able to jump in the deep end for.

    The second obstacle is the way FF14 tries to deal damage to players. From what I see, most attacks are slow, big hits that take away tons of health that require lots of healing for them. This is true even for tanks. I just finished tanking Orbonne where regular hits from bosses were hitting me for 10k damage, 10% of my health, and tank busters were taking half my health. While that makes sense for a tank buster, when the damage comes in slow, huge hits like we get, it makes it impossible to tune things differently. And let's not forget if you dodge the attack altogether. A single dodge leaves a LOT of open space.

    Instead, damage should be in smaller amounts at a more steady pace. This reduces the effectiveness of a single dodge yet the dodge is till valuable since, y'know, it gives some breathing room, it gives more control over damage numbers to the devs, and you don't need to rely purely on the big, slow heals. And not just on tanks. This should be true for damage to other party members. There are a lot of damage effects that go out that do big hits to DPS and healers, but there's so LITTLE in terms of "here's a bunch of small, consistent damage." The most prominent example I can think of for it is Behemoth in Labyrinth. However, consistently hitting the party for small damage is something that should be done, because that ALSO encourage healing the party outside of when someone makes a mistake or a boss does some big unavoidable hit.

    There are totally ways to make a 75/25 heal-to-dps ratio work without it ruining mistake space. The problem is, the devs are viewing things in VERY limited scopes that make these ideas harder for them to execute.
    (3)

  3. #53
    Player
    Ftail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    310
    Character
    Lilac Blackthorne
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by FoxCh40s View Post
    Man, I remember those days; that was in fact the reason I decided to go Scholar in 2.2. I got sick of White Mages Mp issues and started leveling the job and absolutely fell in love with it. Casting before the damage, rather than after took me a while to learn, but I eventually got the hang of it.

    Scholar was great at single target healing efficiency, but really weak on the AoE aspect, making you plan with Whispering Dawn, Succor, and other contingencies; it felt GREAT. The real reason Scholar got knocked down a peg is because our shields and fairy heals were always crazy strong at the end of the patch cycles, causing people to cry that it was OP, then forget just how much trouble we have healing in a dungeon at minimum iLVL early on.

    Ive entirely stopped playing healers, mostly because there is zero identity left in any of the best healers. Scholar has zero identity, Astro is slowly getting stripped of it; White Mage is the same because it never had anything to loose, and if they did, they just annoyingly got it back at a higher level with a crappy coat of paint.

    Ive given up on them fixing healers, because I know they wont. Once Square changes something this drastically, they never go back.
    I remember back near the end of the 2.0 cycle, I was going through dungeons as a SCH and never exiting cleric stance because my fairy could almost solo heal trash and boss pulls with the occasional lustrate being needed, back when lustrate was percentage based. Now the fairy does so little healing it's just pitiful. How the times change.
    (8)

  4. #54
    Player
    Saefinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,673
    Character
    Yesunova Hotgo
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by hythrain View Post
    Honestly, it's easier to get that 75% healing time going than it may seem. I don't think you saw my post a couple pages back, but basically the trick is to do it over time. For example, from levels 1 to 30 you make healing easy and have a 75% DPS/25% healing ratio (as we do now). This provides an environment that allows for lots of mistakes and learning to balance healing with DPS. By level 50, you aim for that to be 60/40 for DPS, giving less room for error. By 60, 50/50. And then by 70, you're putting more healing on the plate than DPS until, finally, by 80 you're where you need to be. And in terms of casual content, the 25% DPS, 75% healing ratio is a good balance because it still gives you room for error. At that sort of level, encounters wouldn't be designed with healer DPS in mind, meaning if a healer was worried about mistakes they could just... not DPS. At least then they have a lot to do. In addition, since you're getting more healing tools over time it'll make more sense to do it this way. And the thing is, you don't even need it perfect in end-game casual content compared to Savage. If anything, it should be that way! Savage should automatically have a higher skill floor for everyone just to start it, because that's the idea of it. It's called Savage because it should be savage.

    The trick is HOW you get this done. A change like this needs to sweep the entire game to make it a gradual change that players, even casual ones, get used to. If we try to go from 75/25 at 80 to 25/75 by whatever Endwalker's level cap is, it won't fly. You also need to force would be healers to go through the ropes. Yes, they can do it at an accelerated rate if they have experience in the game but it still needs to be done. The question, therefore, is if Yoshi and his team are willing to modify damage from every dungeon, trial and raid from before Endwalker to make it work (including adjusting old Savages for those who want to do them at min ilevel to ensure they can be done without the healer DPS). Solo content doesn't need to be touched at all, because even if you're a healer in solo content you'll be DPSing a lot to get stuff done.

    ... I'm not sure where I was going with this anymore. Lost my original train of thought. Oh well, I'm done.
    Whilst I think doing this could address the balance of healing and DPS and prepare people for more of a healing focus. I feel rebalancing all the old content would be too big of a task the devs would do for healers, that said...if they're gonna do it, it's probably best they do it during the numbers crunch they're doing for Endwalker.

    But I think the compromise that I've arrived at here is that we break up the monotony in the down time with more DPS or support abilities. They don't have to be complicated just like before they stripped the healer jobs. Then for content moving forward address that ratio. Level's 80 to 90 could follow the kind of transition you describe.
    (3)

  5. #55
    Player
    ItMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Lumsa Lomsa
    Posts
    4,178
    Character
    Iiiiiiiiiiit's Meeeee
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by hythrain View Post
    Yet people can level a summoner to 80, decide they wanna go Scholar and bam; they're a Scholar at level 80. We're opening more of this problem with Sage, because now ANYONE who has hit 70 can just... start healing. When you allow this, you're forced to keep a low skill floor at that level. Healing is the one job that nobody should be able to jump in the deep end for.
    You should check out this thread~
    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ew-Healer-Sage

    (Maybe you have, maybe you haven't, but you haven't posted in it so while that doesn't guarantee you haven't seen it I hope you find this this is helpful/interesting)
    (0)

  6. #56
    Player
    hythrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Kyahre Hythrain
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ItMe View Post
    You should check out this thread~
    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ew-Healer-Sage

    (Maybe you have, maybe you haven't, but you haven't posted in it so while that doesn't guarantee you haven't seen it I hope you find this this is helpful/interesting)
    I didn't until now, but honestly a lot of the arguments against doing anything are stupid.

    "Oh, we deal with this now." And? We shouldn't.
    (1)

  7. #57
    Player
    hythrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Kyahre Hythrain
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Saefinn View Post
    snip
    We could go an alternative way. The use of role quests that the devs used in ShB instead of class quests, which you HAD to finish to go past a certain point, could allow for a better system: a Hall of Skills. In this, everyone must undergo multiple tasks with a set item level (like what Bozja does) to prove their competency at the job. They cannot queue for dungeons, trials or raids without having done these (trust party dungeons can still be done, though). Here's a brief idea of what the tasks could be, though this could be expanded upon (note all tasks need to be on a per job basis and not per role):

    DPS Hall of Skills Ideas
    1. DPS Check - Test how much damage you can do under a hard enrage timer. Winning takes a minimum level of DPS but not perfection. Instead, you need to be capable of 80% of the max DPS for your job.
    2. Position Check - Test your ability to kill an enemy slowly while not getting hit. Healing skills and base regen are disabled, and every time you're hit your DPS is lowered for the rest of the fight.
    3. Combination Check - Combines the DPS and Position Checks

    Tank Hall of Skill Ideas:
    1. Enmity Check - Test your ability to maintain enmity on the enemy from NPCs. They will generate higher than normal enmity and it's up to you to manage your DPS to ensure you can hold it.
    2. Position Check - Same as the DPS one. No NPCs needed for this.
    3. Defensive Cooldown Check - Test smart use of defensive cooldowns. An NPC will heal you but they can only heal a certain amount per second. If you don't use defensive cooldowns, especially at specific parts, you won't survive. You only need to survive a certain amount of time.
    4. Combination Check - Combination of the three previous tests.


    Healer Hall of Skills
    1. Tank Healing Check - Test your ability to heal a single target and keep it alive while maintaining MP. The expectation is that you don't DPS at all, and as such DPS skills are disabled.
    2. AOE Healing Check - Test your ability to heal a group while maintaining MP.
    3. Combo Healing Check - Perform both of the last two at once. This is just to ensure you can do healing in general before adding in additiona stuff.
    4. Positional Check - Same as DPS and Tank, save for this change: every time you get hit, your healing power is reduced for the rest of the fight. Get hit too much and you can't heal the NPCs that you need to finish the target.
    5. DPS Weave Check - Check your ability to heal a single target and weave DPS in as well. This fight would be a hard enrage timer, where if you don't DPS the enemy won't die. Note that the expectation will be that you only need to DPS about 15-20% of the time.
    6. Combination Check - The total package, mixing everything from the above to test your skills.

    As you might've noticed, Tank and Healer have more they need to do since they have more to pay attention to... at least as far as I can think of.
    (0)

  8. #58
    Player
    hythrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Kyahre Hythrain
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Additional note I felt I should include: If the idea of going through every dungeon, trial and raid to rework their numbers for the sake of healing seems big, allow me to tell you what WoW has done. For its newest expansion, Shadowlands, Blizzard performed a level squish. Anyone who was at the top level of 120 became level 50, and the new expansion now went from 50-60. A result of this was that they had to rebalance every single dungeon and raid for everyone (not just in a way to affect healers), because otherwise old raids wouldn't be doable. I opted to do the numbers on how many encounters this is. Not counting dungeons for either side (so WoW raids only vs. our raids and trials, though WoW has over 40 dungeons over FF14) and not counting alternate difficulties for WoW but counting Savage and Extreme for FF14, we have currently 209 encounters. By comparison, WoW has 214 encounters by the end of its fourth expansion (an expansion that released in 2012). The three expansions after add 107 encounters for 321 encounters... just in raids. Imagine adding the dungeons, which also are typically more than 4 per compared to us.

    In short, the idea of "well that's a lot to rebalance" is a poor excuse. They would have a smaller job than the WoW team did, both in the number of encounters and the job itself. And honestly, if they want to make healers do more healing then they need to do it across the board and ensure people learn THAT way of healing from the beginning.
    (0)

  9. #59
    Player
    ItMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Lumsa Lomsa
    Posts
    4,178
    Character
    Iiiiiiiiiiit's Meeeee
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by hythrain View Post
    I didn't until now, but honestly a lot of the arguments against doing anything are stupid.

    "Oh, we deal with this now." And? We shouldn't.
    Wow... huh...
    I was getting something very different out of the thread.
    I was reading more
    "We've seen this happen with every expac and its ultimately only a small short term problem not really worth addressing."
    Sorry the thread just frustrated you.
    (1)

  10. #60
    Player
    hythrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    32
    Character
    Kyahre Hythrain
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ItMe View Post
    Wow... huh...
    I was getting something very different out of the thread.
    I was reading more
    "We've seen this happen with every expac and its ultimately only a small short term problem not really worth addressing."
    Sorry the thread just frustrated you.
    Thing is, we still deal with it now. I sometimes tank as GNB, and I had more than one run where the healer was... not using their skills properly. More often than not it's a SCH or an AST. My favourite was in a level 50 dungeon with a SCH who did nothing but used Physick. I'm not joking. I thought they had shit gear and just did slow pulls, only for someone to point out at the end that they used NOTHING but Physick.
    (0)

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