Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Bright-Flower]

The last thing we need from Zenos is him effortlessly trouncing more npcs. He's done that plenty.

[EaraGrace]

In regards to the 5.2 thing, that’s something i’m going to strongly disagree with. They give a heavy emphasis on the likes of Theyler and his friend and then they’re literally never heard from again. They build up the suspense of all these people getting the echo and then nothing comes from it.

The heavy emphasis was them showing, not just explaining, that the people of Norvrandt were falling for Elidibus’ scheme. I fully admit to believing a fight with them was coming, but that’s misdirection not bad writing. And people throughout the story have gained the echo, it’s hardly the big deal it was early in the story when we didn’t understand it.

Not to mention the whole thing in 5.3 with the Heroes Gauntlet and somehow random people can take on shades of Warriors of Light?

And there’s a number of stated reasons why those shades weren’t wrecking, but still beating, normal people. First they weren’t the entire person, second they were WoL not THE WoL and third they were various people from across the shards, with differing fighting abilities. The bosses prove that.

In ARR that wasn’t even a thing and quite the opposite he actually recollected more than others as stated by most of the sundered. He also had the goal of balance and also was tied to many plot threads like forging the final key, and making sure Minfilia wasn’t harmed.

I’m gonna need context for the recollected more line. The sundered are a bad comparison considering they’re the ones who have to go through repeated cycles of death, rebirth and remembrance.

Him protecting Minfillia and his goal of balance still fits his stated motivations as a mediator for the Convocation perfectly. It’s only when it seemed the balance swung in the opposite direction that he took aggressive action. It’s not a 180 IMO. Lahabreas and Zenos’ failure forced his hand. He was rapidly losing his hold on things, so he attempted to regain control of the situation on the Source. He almost succeeded. And then with Emet dead and WoL even stronger the situation was even more dire than at any other point for the unsundered, so of course he took to the field.

it didn’t help that the community just loved Graha so much they felt the need to change endings and give him insane plot armor just to keep him alive.

The interview never indicates this and like I said there’s nothing to indicate the 5.3 story was mostly written after the release of 5.0 or it’s patches

[Cilia]

I'd believe the original plan wasn't to have G'raha (as the Crystal Exarch) survive or be brought back to the Source for Endwalker. I don't really have a problem with it though. (There are subtle hints he's being pushed hard in 5.4 and 5.5 so it feels like he has a place in the core cast, and in the Endwalker trailer he's got the most static scene, just standing in a closed room reading a book.)

The title "Warrior of Light" is mostly ceremonial dressing by Hydaelyn; the Echo does not confer additional combat ability on its own. (Only Fordola seems to use her Resonance as an actual superpower; contrast Arenvald, who is implied to be a mediocre combatant at best.) The PC is probably helped on some level by being an incarnation of Azem. Those were just shades anyway, and plenty of people are capable fighters without the Echo.

I don't recall it ever being stated that Elidibus had a better recollection than the other Ascians.

Back to Zenos - he had plenty of time to establish himself back in Stormblood, but mostly acted through proxies (Grynewaht, Yotsuyu, Fordola), which diminished his impact on the overall story. The problem is that we don't actually get to him until the very end; his ranting in the Royal Menagerie, both pre- and post-battle, are very informative of his character, but then he kills himself and it's hard to care. He survives thanks to Resonance, but he's been doing very little since while maneuvering around and biding his time while we were diddling around on the First. (Cf. Emet-Selch, who after Titania's defeat is a near-constant presence and spends a lot of time ingratiating himself to the Scions, later even opening up to the PC in Kholusia.)

Zenos is not a sympathetic character, and he hasn't really had enough screentime to be particularly entertaining. As a character he doesn't ask you to feel sorry for him or make excuses for his transgressions, but there are reasons he is the way he is, reasons why he does the things he does. Even if he's neither sympathetic nor entertaining, he's unpredictable - and I personally find that more interesting.

In such an emotionally exhausting story loaded with characters who want you to sympathize with them, Zenos' honest, shameless selfishness is refreshing.

[Nanchi]

I usually tend to ignore this thread for my own sanity but I strongly believe Zenos has been set up wonderfully for Endwalker. It might not mean much in the end but his acknowledgement for "playing the Fool in this stage" (4.0 msq) is very interesting, especially when we forward to Elidibus taking over his body, repeating the same sentence "An Emissary playing the role of the fool".(I believe that was around 5.0) Another interesting observation was him sharing the exact same line as Emet-Selch "I've played my part to perfection." I'd include Screenshots if it wasn't 2am and me being on mobile. I just find it very curious why they would phrase it in such a way. Will edit tomorrow to compare to JP and German.

Also I do not blame Zenos for not making enough of an impression on the player base, while I myself am deeply enamored by his personality and the role he's playing I do realize most people could give less of a crap. The pacing of Stormblood is to fault here, having two narratives always taking focus away from him, having screentime split between Yotsuyu and that whole arc, I do not blame him. Not to mention part of his backstory being locked away behind one of the lore books which is a shame. I know a villain doesn't need a sob story to be likeable but I do think it would have helped if people got to see a bit more of him and especially why he turned out the way he did.

The most intriguing part for me is his relationship to the WoL, the borderline obsession and the lengths he's going to, to have them fight him again is something that can be brilliantly utilized in the msq. Up until now the WoL has been an obstacle. This time the villain is willing to burn down the world for the WoL, I wonder what kind of twists and interesting revelations will appear in endwalker. I for one cannot wait to see more of Zenos.

[Crushnight]

I will stand by that Zenos was meant to be dead in 4.0 and he has been rewritten back into the story haphazardly to make him work.

Zenos had no idea he would even body hop after slitting his throat with his katana, do also bear in mind this body hop happened after his body was moved and transported to his unmarked grave where Elidibus snatched the body, all before Zenos woke up inside the resistance Elezen, that is a pretty damn weak pull of the lifestream with someone who willingly wanted to die.

Elidibus showed his face(as Zenos) to Varis in the very clearly body stature of a typical Hyur male, Zenos body stature is far far larger, we knew by this point 2 Garleans having big hulking frames (Zenos and Varis) and it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have such a frame be present and have us think it is another Garlean(like the emperor Solus) and then do a gotcha and go it is Zenos's body.

Elezen Zenos 1st speaking scene could be completely cut and nothing would be lost and we wouldn't have a minor plot hole of a Resistance member dead in Castrum Abania and Elezen Zenos flying off on a Garlean Warmecha that is never spotted, talked about or seen ever again, it literally goes poof from the story.

Elezen Zenos 2nd speaking scene does exactly what the 1st one does but puts him in a more believable area hence why the 1st scene can be completely cut, this scene is here to establish Zenos is still alive somehow and he wants his body back to continue the hunt with the WoL.

Zenos's dreams are not mentioned at all until patch 5.2, straight up an addition that could've been handled way better if they really intended to use him, why do I think this, Black Rose, Black Rose was just a sidequest in the Fringes until the MSQ picked it up, this made Black Rose feel a lot more intentionally added. Aulus would've known about the dreams Zenos was plague with, the man was one of Zenos's closest associates and Aulus having such an affinity with anything related to the soul would 100% be interested in Zenos's never ending dreams, they easily, easily could've been in a bit of notes in the Ala Mhigan Resotorium that an NPC could've said passing mention at some point prior to 5.2 that Zenos was plagued with a dream about an unknown place, vague enough stuff that could've pointed to as foreshadowing.

Zenos was meant to die, the story had changed at some point between the writing of 4.0 and the 4.X patches, this then affected the 5.X story and patches as Zenos had to be explained, they explored everything they initially wanted to with him in 4.0 then they had to add beyond that to give him a narrative purpose and he has suffered for it because they had to take away Zenos's best part his entertainment value.

[BlitzAceRush]

Zenos was meant to die, the story had changed at some point between the writing of 4.0 and the 4.X patches, this then affected the 5.X story and patches as Zenos had to be explained, they explored everything they initially wanted to with him in 4.0 then they had to add beyond that to give him a narrative purpose and he has suffered for it because they had to take away Zenos's best part his entertainment value.

While I won't argue the idea he was written back in after his death, the one point most people, who love or hate him seem to agree on is that he wasn't explored at all, that being both a point for and against him. In Stoomblood he's not explored at all, you learn little to nothing about the man or his motivations outside their most base, and while Zenos wasn't initially written to be deep he does have a past, a backstory and reasons for why he is who he is and does what he does, and 4.0 gives you "I want to hunt strong things." and "I only feel when I'm challenged." finally ended with your first and only really encounter with him where you actually talk to one another ending with him revealing that having being bested he feels fulfilled, that this is the best he'll ever feel. That's it, who was this man? Why did he do all this? Why is he even like this? Gotta read a lore book and check the tales from the Storm for that.

So while yes, he could have been meant to die in 4.0, or perhaps he was always meant to come back and it was more about when, or he was always supposed to pop right back up, we'll never know unless they tell us, but including the supplementary material, he's gotten far more exploration since his return, which wasn't a very high bar to beat given it was basically non-existent.

[Katie_Kitty]

uh what? People absolutely did like Elidibus before 5.3. That’s a weird assumption to make lmao. That’s like saying people didn’t like the ascians before shadowbringers. There was a lot to them before, shadowbringers just spelled it out for the slower people.

Well now that's some revisionist history if I ever heard any. Nobody liked or cared about the ascians before shadowbringers. Elidibus was the butt of the joke from the moment he appeared as a MyStErIoUs RoBeD mAn (so spooky).

[Theodric]

The game has players from all over the world from many different countries, cultures and backgrounds. Given how personal tastes work, I would argue that it is quite deceptive to frame things in such a way as to imply that 'nobody' or 'barely anybody' liked Elidibus or the Ascians until Shadowbringers. Many did and I myself know quite a number of individuals who were fans of both before the expansion.

Indeed, some of us have been posting here for almost a decade now and can attest to that fact.

[Lauront]

Well now that's some revisionist history if I ever heard any. Nobody liked or cared about the ascians before shadowbringers. Elidibus was the butt of the joke from the moment he appeared as a MyStErIoUs RoBeD mAn (so spooky).

I think you should go sit down with a nice cup of tea or some other drink rather than making up claims you're rather ill-qualified to back.

[Katie_Kitty]

I think you should go sit down with a nice cup of tea or some other drink rather than making up claims you're rather ill-qualified to back.

Ill-qualified? What a ridiculous accusation to make. I was actually here prior to shadowbringers, which is more than we can say about some of the other people who have been adding in their two cents.

Maybe you thought Elidibus was the pinnacle of storytelling back in ARR, but I and most others sure as heck were not the least bit impressed with him.