Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[LineageRazor]

This is the man who performed the Resonant experiments, breaking down souls and using them to copy the Echo onto other souls. Since he shared all of his data with Zenos at some point, then Zenos has some idea about how souls work, and that they can return to the body once they are pulled from it. Since we do without having ever done it before, then why not Zenos? Also keep in mind that Aulus mal Asina employed magitek in that battle that could detect our souls and even push them around to attempt to keep us from our body long enough that we would die. Why not bake that detection into the Resonance?

I mean, the very quotes you quoted shows that Aulus did NOT know all there was to know about souls, since we pretty much took him by surprise throughout the battle. Even if Aulus knows more about souls than anyone else on the planet, there are clearly gaps in his knowledge. So, assuming that just because Zenos knows Aulus, he should know how to use his soul to transform a host body is a logical leap - particularly when you consider that Aulus is the expert, not Zenos. Just because Aulus tells Zenos something, does not mean he'll understand it fully.

Even if we assume that Zenos SHOULD have known how to transform, there are advantages to being disguised as an Alliance Elezen. He gets to move freely throughout Alliance territory, for one, and when he DOES encounter opposition, they don't react with, "Oh, crap, it's Zenos - deploy EVERYONE!!!"

[Vyrerus]

I mean, the very quotes you quoted shows that Aulus did NOT know all there was to know about souls, since we pretty much took him by surprise throughout the battle. Even if Aulus knows more about souls than anyone else on the planet, there are clearly gaps in his knowledge. So, assuming that just because Zenos knows Aulus, he should know how to use his soul to transform a host body is a logical leap - particularly when you consider that Aulus is the expert, not Zenos. Just because Aulus tells Zenos something, does not mean he'll understand it fully.

Even if we assume that Zenos SHOULD have known how to transform, there are advantages to being disguised as an Alliance Elezen. He gets to move freely throughout Alliance territory, for one, and when he DOES encounter opposition, they don't react with, "Oh, crap, it's Zenos - deploy EVERYONE!!!"

Well, I probably remember Zenos's monologue before the Shinryu fight better than most. He claims then that it is his research into the Resonant and the Echo. It's not slated in stone, but it implies that he delved into the research alongside Aulus.

I mean, I concede it depends on how you interpret the vague lines that basically amount to, "Ah, look at the WoL's big numbers." I think Moose or someone also pointed out a while back that someone asked about those battle mechanics and the devs replied that they weren't actually about the soul or something.

I just it find it interesting that, hey, this Garlean and the expansion end boss were researching the soul.

[Kesey]

Given how most of us are though, with liking a concrete statement, it didn't go over so well with most people.

This is the explicit problem with fiction analysis in modern times. So many aren't willing to look at implicit details and make educated guesses, out of, what I believe, is just fear of being incorrect. It goes against the STEM focus of modern education which has trained everyone to look for explicit evidence only.

[Crushnight]

Who's the worst villain then? +snip

Elidibus being Zenos was undecided until 4.1 else Elidibus body would been closer to that of Zenos rather than his hyur size look in 4.0 ending cutscene, not like we didn't already know Garleans couldn't be bigger and more bulky at that time, the face reveal was to Varis only and many different people at that time could shake him not just Zenos, Solus, his father, Gaius, another member of the royal family (Nerva). I actually suspect it was between Zenos, Gaius and Solus 1/3 wasn't shown and could be molded however which way they want, 1/3 was clearly more hyur size fitting Elidibus model size better, and 1/3 breaks Elidibus model consistency, they went with the one that breaks Elidibus's hyur size model because reasons. Writers change their minds and there would be a gap between finishing 4.0 story and beginning on the next part. I highly doubt the original intention of Zenos was to live beyond 4.0 but they changed their minds later.

Aulus knew very little he had what 2 successes on the Resonant project (Zenos and Fordola, Zenos potentially going through it twice), even if he told Zenos everything the leap Zenos would have to do to go to being able to body hop with no prior knowledge he could actively do that ( he wasn't taught like the Sahagin Priest, Zenos just instinctively did it and then continued to do it like no biggie) is bonkers.

That all actually begs the question who's echo did Zenos get his Resonant from? Don't think it was an Ascian at this stage.

When a character dies the way Zenos does and then gets brought back it cheapens that death scene, any message/meaning in that death scene is lessened because the writer undid it, how many people would think if Emet-Selch came back no matter how good the writing is would think his 5.0 death scene would be made worse. I would. It doesn't matter who that character is having then die and get back up loses impact going forward.

Ishikawa and the writing team can write an amazing scenario all they want, Zenos will forever be stained with that death.

Worse Villian is Weiss from Dirge of Cerberus, Hojo is controlling his dead body all throughout the game yet Weiss decides to go along with Hojo's plan of using Omega because unknowable reasons, Hojo is the true villain yet overshadowed by dual wielding katana silver haired pretty boy with less characterisation than the Cloud of Darkness or Necron(Necron actually speaks to you which is more than can be said of Weiss).

[Vyrerus]

Kachow!

The FFXIV writers are always working on the next expansion by the time they release one, aren't they, usually? That's why they hardly ever change the plans of major content and stuff. Zenos being taken by Elidibus was already slated. Remember that Ascians can transform vessels to look like whoever they want, it just takes a toll on them or the vessel. Completely possible for Elidibus to transform his face into Zenos's before actually taking the body.

Aulus had two perfect successes, and several successes before that imparted magicks onto people incapable of them before. Zenos, Fordola, and Number 24 that we know of. Also, now, with Bozja and Delubnum Reginae's storyline, we know that his research was perfected and could be replicated by anyone, shown by Misjia replicating it and taking a Resonant version of Mikoto's Echo complete with Futuresight.

Body hopping is more about mastering the Echo than it is just about knowledge of the Soul. Zenos had mastered the Echo, just as the Sahagin Priest had claimed to, only Zenos had even more of a mastery of it, shown by him mantling Shinryu.

Ultimately it doesn't matter who Zenos's Resonance is modeled after. Many people think it's Krile for both him and Fordola. The jury's out on that one, at least for anything concrete.

Personally, I enjoy that they used pre-established concepts to bring Zenos back. It would have been rather disappointing to have a guy so powerful that he takes control of Primals just bite it like a punk. Even if you don't like him, Zenos is a huge nod to the story concepts they've given to us, and will always be great for exploring them. It's not really a stain at all.

Huh, sounds like I didn't miss much not playing DoC then.

[Kesey]

The FFXIV writers are always working on the next expansion by the time they release one, aren't they, usually? That's why they hardly ever change the plans of major content and stuff. Zenos being taken by Elidibus was already slated. Remember that Ascians can transform vessels to look like whoever they want, it just takes a toll on them or the vessel. Completely possible for Elidibus to transform his face into Zenos's before actually taking the body.

Yes this is true. I believe they have the next expansion planned out when they release a current one, so they are ahead by roughly two years in detailed story progress. I believe they also said they have a rough sketch of the next 5 years of story line too.

Meaning when Zenos committed suicide at the end of 4.0, I guarantee they were planning for him to come back as the puppet of an Ascian for the grand finale with Zodiark. And here we are, Zenos is back and partnered with an Ascian for the big ending.

[KageTokage]

I'm really hoping the Resonant stuff gains some actual MSQ relevance in 6.0 again instead of just being used as a throwaway plot point in Bozja.

The actual tech itself is not even mentioned anywhere outside of the field records despite the...concerning implications of it seemingly being perfected.

[Jirah]

Hes been revealed in 3.5 I think and since then we have had compelling antagonists come and go from then to 5.5 and Zenos doesnt stick out what so ever. Hes not interesting, and even if they flesh him out its too late for any last minute sob stories. He shouldve died in 4.0 him being alive now undermines the whole point of stormblood and feels regressive

[Vyrerus]

He shouldve died in 4.0 him being alive now undermines the whole point of stormblood and feels regressive

I see this as a talking point a lot, so tell me, what was the whole point of Stormblood?

[Veloran]

I see this as a talking point a lot, so tell me, what was the whole point of Stormblood?

At the time, anyone would have said advancing the "war with the empire" plotline, which was mostly on the backburner since the climax of 2.0. Since then we'd met the new emperor in Heavensward, so 4.0 was about dealing with the mad prince who embodied the absolute worst aspects of Garlean rule, setting up a direct confrontation down the line. Basically, moving from being on the defensive back in Eorzea to on the offensive taking down imperial provinces. But then Zenos lived, killed his dad, and completely wrecked Garlemald, so now it appears the imperial war plot is just straight up done for. Which is why when you ask what the point of Stormblood currently was, there's really not a good answer. Right now I can only guess "to introduce Zenos to the plot", but of course you really don't need a full expansion to do that.