Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Kesey]

I don't think so.

Ran'jit is exposited as being untouchable by your same allies that later go on to battle an original Ascian. It's silly precisely because what's being exposited is drastically different from what's being shown in gameplay. He also doesn't consistently use his same moves. He never uses the Mega Raiton again after the first encounter. He only seems more integrated with the plot because he has many interactions with your NPC allies. His role could basically be filled in by any bad guy the writers wanted to use, but it's easier to reuse the same guy over and over.

I don't know why you say Zenos had no stake in the plot. Zenos drove the entire plot of 4.0. The attack on Rhalgr's Reach was his response to us destroying that prototype and killing its associated squad. He's the commander for both fronts, but leaves Doma in Yotsuyu's hands, because the imperials found Shinryu bound by Omega. He let the Doman Liberation Front grow by deciding not to kill those villagers. He had Fordola imbued with the Resonance. Just because they're not on your butt 24/7 doesn't mean a villain doesn't have stake in the plot. It just means they're a power bottom. /wink

The opposite is true. Zenos had a very hands off approach and didn't drive his narrative at all. Stormblood's narrative was driven by the characters who were constantly acting in ways to oppose the empire. Zenos just stood at the top of that structure. I'd even argue Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach was worst moment written for his character because it put a passivity and a "I'm better than you" attitude that plagued his character up to today.

Ran'jit, on the other hand, was actively pursuing the Warriors of Darkness. Granted he also did not drive the narrative but was able to put stress and suspense into the narrative to be impactful toward getting the resolution.

[Vyrerus]

The opposite is true. Zenos had a very hands off approach and didn't drive his narrative at all. Stormblood's narrative was driven by the characters who were constantly acting in ways to oppose the empire. Zenos just stood at the top of that structure. I'd even argue Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach was worst moment written for his character because it put a passivity and a "I'm better than you" attitude that plagued his character up to today.

Ran'jit, on the other hand, was actively pursuing the Warriors of Darkness. Granted he also did not drive the narrative but was able to put stress and suspense into the narrative to be impactful toward getting the resolution.

Zenos attacks the Reach = We can't contest the Empire like this, have to go to the Far East. Narrative driven.

Zenos refrains from killing us and Yugiri, since we lit a fire under the Domans. He further refrains from killing the Domans, allowing them to muster force and storm Doma Castle. Narrative driven.

The thing you say plagues his character is basically the main pillar of his character.

Ran'jit and his encounters are just punctuation marks at every villa we visit in Shadowbringers. They don't add anything other than an encounter with Ran'jit, and they are annoying. They specifically exist to have some face on our bad guys, and to create a more personal story for driving up NPC drama. Ran'jit beleaguers the narrative, and the stress from the weight he adds to it is dropped as easily as it is picked up.

[Kesey]

Zenos attacks the Reach = We can't contest the Empire like this, have to go to the Far East. Narrative driven.

Zenos refrains from killing us and Yugiri, since we lit a fire under the Domans. He further refrains from killing the Domans, allowing them to muster force and storm Doma Castle. Narrative driven.

The thing you say plagues his character is basically the main pillar of his character.

Ran'jit and his encounters are just punctuation marks at every villa we visit in Shadowbringers. They don't add anything other than an encounter with Ran'jit, and they are annoying. They specifically exist to have some face on our bad guys, and to create a more personal story for driving up NPC drama. Ran'jit beleaguers the narrative, and the stress from the weight he adds to it is dropped as easily as it is picked up.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when characters "refrain" from actions it drives the narrative... I could have sworn that characters with faces and npc drama are the cornerstones of character driven storytelling. Characters, on both sides of the story, drive the action by doing actions. Ran'jit does what Zenos cannot.

But yeah man, Zenos yawning from the throne really helps the narrative. It's not like we've seen many threads about the failure of his character and this is the exact reason why every believes this. Stormblood would have been better for Zenos if he was shown to have been training for next encounter with the WOL and doing research that lets him mount Shinryu. Instead he implies orders and gets bored.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I thought it added up just fine. We don't actually know at what point he gained the Resonance. Even though he did, Fordola gained it too. We beat her, so it's not that big of a deal compared to his "natural" strength anyway. Also in Ala Mhigo, we get that line about, "Gather your most trusted comrades." To explain away why it's a dungeon, so we fight him with 3 talented adventurers and the WoL.

As for beating him as Shinryu, well, mantling a primal is all well and good, but it's not any less believable than beating Thordan. Thordan was the summation of 1,000 years of piety. one of Nidhogg's Eyes, and the entire Heavensward. He also got to drink up a Source Ascian and some of the Warring Triad's power juice. Shinryu was just both of Nidhogg's eyes, Ilberd's hatred, and that swathe of the Ala Mhigan Resistance that followed him. Nevermind that the eyes lost aether by Ilberd using them at the top of Baelsar's Wall to try and kill us. Shinryu had also just come out of a subdued and weakened state, and we know from watching Garuda try and fail to temper us that when it tried to temper us along with Zenos and not only fail but have its will subsumed... it's another weakening to the primal. Plus it started out "life" sealed by Papalymo. Imagine how much stronger it could have been.

My point is though, he beats us both times we fight him previously. We supposedly get stronger after completing bardam’s mettle and such and although we don’t know how much power he gained from the resonance, it’s pretty obvious it was a fairly big increase. Fordola and him aren’t that comparable considering yknow, he’s “special” and powerful. He should’ve beat us in ala mhigo 3 other adventurers or not considering how easily he cut down adventurers and hardened warriors in rhalgrs. It’s just very inconsistent power scaling. Ranjiit is basically the same way as well i feel. They really should just drop the whole trying to balance power scaling thing.

[Bright-Flower]

The attack on the Reach drives the narrative, but the attack was actually Fordola's idea and she's even the one that kills Meffrid or whoever the c-list named character there was.

Zenos doesn't really do much himself besides beat us and then leave, Fordola does more to actually drive that point. But I'll grant that maybe if Zenos hadn't been there the WOL could have repelled the attack.

In Doma, us attacking Zenos should have been a moment that had negative consequences with us picking a fight we weren't ready for. But instead the only thing that actually comes of it is Grynewaht accidentally helps us rally the Xaela to fight the empire.

[Vyrerus]

The attack on the Reach drives the narrative, but the attack was actually Fordola's idea and she's even the one that kills Meffrid or whoever the c-list named character there was.

Zenos doesn't really do much himself besides beat us and then leave, Fordola does more to actually drive that point. But I'll grant that maybe if Zenos hadn't been there the WOL could have repelled the attack.

In Doma, us attacking Zenos should have been a moment that had negative consequences with us picking a fight we weren't ready for. But instead the only thing that actually comes of it is Grynewaht accidentally helps us rally the Xaela to fight the empire.

And who made her speak her mind to voice and take that plan into action? She kills Meffrid and then gets molly whopped by Lyse and then the WoL. Without Zenos, the tide would have turned in the Resistance's favor, since Lyse would have beaten Fordola into the dirt before she knocks out Conrad. Raubahn and his reinforcements would arrive and push the Garleans out. Casualties would still be pretty high, but the Empire would lose.

Your Doma statement lumps and jumps about a bit. The assassination attempt on Zenos is driven by Yugiri, and the Domans overhear it. It's the final tender for the flame, though it wasn't intentional on our part. The keystone moment comes after we've just lost to Zenos again. His horn breaks, and he goes on a tirade about how he was right to let us live at Rhalgr's Reach. Then that very bold boy takes a pot shot at him while shouting, "Get away from him, you imperial dog!" If Zenos were other antagonist, he may have elected to kill all of the Domans then and there. He's Zenos though, and the unexpected resistance makes him walk away with a smile. His choice to do nothing(except be extra mean to Yotsuyu later) allows the rest of the plot to occur.

It's only after that, that we go to Hien in the Azim Steppe, who has the idea of using the Naadam to gain the Xaelan Alliance. We secure that alliance and consummate it with the scriptwriter's time convenient Garleans showing up right on queue right after we took the Ovoo. Grynewaht didn't do jack except get his butt beat again.

[_Koneko_]

i actually like zenos and fandaniel every villain so far have been buuhuu listen to my sob story i don't get how people like hades despite the fact that his murdered millions/billions and trying to use his own twisted logic that he don't view people as people is some psychopath levels of morally twisted he literally has 0 redeeming qualities

at least zenos is true to his nature in that his a monster who lives only for the hunt and the whole world can burn for all he cares sometimes simple is fine ...

[Mansion]

i actually like zenos and fandaniel every villain so far have been buuhuu listen to my sob story i don't get how people like hades despite the fact that his murdered millions/billions and trying to use his own twisted logic that he don't view people as people is some psychopath levels of morally twisted he literally has 0 redeeming qualities

at least zenos is true to his nature in that his a monster who lives only for the hunt and the whole world can burn for all he cares sometimes simple is fine ...

For me, Zenos has more of a timing problem than a character problem. He has been around for too long, doing little to nothing, which weighs down his interest.
When we inevitable beat him for good in 6.0, in my opinion there are two options. He has a great monologue about his motives and whatver (which would be underwhelming), or he accepts his defeat and dies silently (which would "save" a bit of his character, but wouldn't take off the problems I 've had with him since 4.3).

It would take a LOT of creative writing to save his character in my eyes. And it's not that I don't trust the writers to pull out that effort, I just don't expect it. For me Fandaniel will be the big 6.0 focus, and Zenos might end up being a pawn.

[MoofiaBossVal]

I suspect another reason why Zenos (his personality and motivations aside) seems to be disliked is that he ruins the player's powerfantasy. He has two unwinnable battles and you never beat him in a 1v1 duel. People also seemed to have disliked Ran'jit for similar reasons, as he had two unwinnable fights and a third fight that ends in a draw. This seems to be a trend across games. People also disliked Takumi in Fire Emblem Fates because he didn't suck up to the player from the get-go unlike all of the other characters.

I do think that the unwinnable boss fights in FFXIV could have been better designed (rather than the player doing comfortably fine until they wither the boss down to 80% HP before the boss one shots the player, which feels like cheating, instead have the boss deal a constant barrage of high damage so that after like 2 or 3 minutes, the player has popped all of their cooldowns and can't outheal or out DPS the boss, so the player eventually dies but at least managed to get the boss down to like 30 or 20% HP).