Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Bright-Flower]

I'm the opposite in a way.

I don't like Zenos, but I feel he was a poor fit for SB. Because he didn't care about the actual struggle. He didn't really care about the revolution or garlemald, he was bored of the plot and only interested in fighting us in the latter half. I think a villain for 4.0 that actually believed in garlemald,that had an actual personal investment in the conflict would have worked much better. But I'm more open to the possibility of him maybe working better in Endwalker where he may fit the story better.

I didn't have a problem with him beating us. I don't care that there's someone stronger than us blessing of light or no, that's fine. My issue is that we just sort of 'leveled up' to be able to fight him in Ala Mhigo and that's boring. The victory didn't feel earned, nothing we did in SB felt out of the ordinary from ARR and HW, we didn't train to counter his style or fine some strategy to beat him. We just kept doing the same thing and our numbers went up so now we could fight him. That wasn't satisfying narratively.

My biggest issue with Zenos though is that there's just nothing for me to latch onto as of yet. The potentially interesting arc of him having to be smart and strategize in order to reclaim his old body was glossed over, he was never shown having any actual difficulty or struggle. And I think that's part of the issue with him. Part of the reason that say, Kefka works for me in VI is that he has to scheme and plot and betray his way to getting power. He's no more sympathetic than Zenos, has no more depth than Zenos, but seeing him work his way up to becoming powerful is more interesting than how Zenos has been handled. And while Kefka had no depth, he's amusing in a way for me with his pesronality where Zenos just feels flat and boring.

Zenos doesn't need to be sympathetic, but I need SOMETHING to latch onto. Something for him to struggle and work for that's engaging, an interesting if still selfish motivation, a more interesting personality, SOMETHING. But for me there's just nothing there and I'm as bored of him as he is of life. I really hope 6.0 changes this for me, I don't WANT to be bored of the main villain. But it doesn't help that he's not really done anything new since being brought back from the dead. He just wants to fight us again, and Fandaniel is the one with the actual plan here, the one actually pushing the plot forward while Zenos sits around on his chair and decides what beating stick he wants to fight us with next.

[Vyrerus]

I'm the opposite in a way.

It's not apparent in gameplay, because the story isn't ever going to force someone to play jobs, but promotionally, the WoL became a Samurai and learned Far Eastern katana techniques, and then beat Zenos with Zenos's choice weapon.

Zenos's three katanas also represent the elements inherent in Red Mage's casting line, not all of them mind, but hey Thunder and Wind. Veraero and Verthunder are RDM's strongest standard spells. Then the Ame-no-Hibikiri is just "Sword" elemental... but it's all blood red like the enchanted combo. Red Magic was born from Ala Mhigo, and is a near extinct art for the WoL to bring against him, if you played it for the MSQ.

Most of the 70 capstone skills in Stormblood were powerful battle techniques that no one else in the world can do, or at least very few. Nastrond is something only the WoL and Estinien can do. The Blackest Night is something only the WoL can do. It's not true for every job, but with the various job questlines, part of the gameplay of Stormblood was taking new techniques with major reworks/job gauge introduction. Paladin got Requiescat and Holy Spirit, and as shown in the tournament, it seems to be the WoL's signature special sword style, compared to Bronze Bull and his Boulders, Handeloup and his Holy Orb explosions/Heavensward style sword skills, and then finally Black Lotus who had a mix of the old Gladiator sets, tornados, sanguine blade, and even heckin' Plunge from DRK, despite being a GLA.

I felt like most all of the jobs went through something big in Stormblood. Not Zenos levels of big, but training montage big is pretty great.

There's also something to be said for getting to fight Zenos twice, and see the majority of all of his skillset. Then living to tell the tale, twice. He didn't grow at all during the course, only revealed more and more of his true power. With the WoL being an insanely skilled fighter of multiple disciplines, the only real gap between them was raw power.

Anywho, not trying to persuade you to like him, just what your post made me think.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It's not apparent in gameplay, because the story isn't ever going to force someone to play jobs, but promotionally, the WoL became a Samurai and learned Far Eastern katana techniques, and then beat Zenos with Zenos's choice weapon.

Zenos's three katanas also represent the elements inherent in Red Mage's casting line, not all of them mind, but hey Thunder and Wind. Veraero and Verthunder are RDM's strongest standard spells. Then the Ame-no-Hibikiri is just "Sword" elemental... but it's all blood red like the enchanted combo. Red Magic was born from Ala Mhigo, and is a near extinct art for the WoL to bring against him, if you played it for the MSQ.

Most of the 70 capstone skills in Stormblood were powerful battle techniques that no one else in the world can do, or at least very few. Nastrond is something only the WoL and Estinien can do. The Blackest Night is something only the WoL can do. It's not true for every job, but with the various job questlines, part of the gameplay of Stormblood was taking new techniques with major reworks/job gauge introduction. Paladin got Requiescat and Holy Spirit, and as shown in the tournament, it seems to be the WoL's signature special sword style, compared to Bronze Bull and his Boulders, Handeloup and his Holy Orb explosions/Heavensward style sword skills, and then finally Black Lotus who had a mix of the old Gladiator sets, tornados, sanguine blade, and even heckin' Plunge from DRK, despite being a GLA.

I felt like most all of the jobs went through something big in Stormblood. Not Zenos levels of big, but training montage big is pretty great.

There's also something to be said for getting to fight Zenos twice, and see the majority of all of his skillset. Then living to tell the tale, twice. He didn't grow at all during the course, only revealed more and more of his true power. With the WoL being an insanely skilled fighter of multiple disciplines, the only real gap between them was raw power.

Anywho, not trying to persuade you to like him, just what your post made me think.

“he didn’t grow at all during the course”. Except he did gain the resonance, which is understood to grant at least some modicum of strength. So we start off getting absolutely pummeled, we get stronger, get pummeled again, get stronger, but then Zenos obtains the resonance so he also get stronger but the. we beat him. The power scaling is insanely wonky lmao.

[RyuDragnier]

I very much want a 1v1 solo instance against Zenos again, but this time with him in his own body, and with us as the victor. I'm looking forward to beating his @$$!

I'm calling it now, we'll get it, as the final battle of the game. The trial will be prior to this, but the final battle will be a solo fight against him, likely using the full power of Azem. I won't be surprised if we use a special set of battle actions against him for the fight, all of which being Azem's most powerful moves, with a unique Limit Break ending the fight. If I were the one writing it, Azem would be summoning the Convocation to attack alongside them for the greatest Limit Break we'd never see again...Final Fantasy.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I'm calling it now, we'll get it, as the final battle of the game. The trial will be prior to this, but the final battle will be a solo fight against him, likely using the full power of Azem. I won't be surprised if we use a special set of battle actions against him for the fight, all of which being Azem's most powerful moves, with a unique Limit Break ending the fight. If I were the one writing it, Azem would be summoning the Convocation to attack alongside them for the greatest Limit Break we'd never see again...Final Fantasy.

We’ve already had so many 1v1’s against him though... Do we seriously need another?

[RyuDragnier]

We’ve already had so many 1v1’s against him though... Do we seriously need another?

For the greatest fight in the existence of the game...probably. Besides, would shutting him up feel better if you needed 7 other people to do him in with? Of course not...it'd feel SO MUCH BETTER when it's just you beating him down.

[KizuyaKatogami]

For the greatest fight in the existence of the game...probably. Besides, would shutting him up feel better if you needed 7 other people to do him in with? Of course not...it'd feel SO MUCH BETTER when it's just you beating him down.

mmm, personally idk if a 1v1 against Zenos in any situation would ever be the greatest fight in the existence of the game. I found my fight against a ladybug in the shroud to be much more interesting than Zenos.

[Katie_Kitty]

For the greatest fight in the existence of the game...probably.

If it's a solo duty, it ain't going to be the greatest anything lol. Greatest disappointment maybe.

[RyuDragnier]

If it's a solo duty, it ain't going to be the greatest anything lol. Greatest disappointment maybe.

I don't know, since 4.1 we've had some good solo instances. I haven't been disappointed in a single one since then, though I admit Ranjit overstayed his welcome when we fought as Thancred.

[Cilia]

Without getting back into litigating Emet-Selch...

The "problem" with Zenos is that he is not like most other villains antagonists in the game; he has no redeeming or sympathetic qualities, and is honestly and shamelessly selfish about his motivations. He doesn't lie to anyone, pretend to goodness, or have a sob story that garners a sympathy. He is still a tragic figure to some degree, but not a sympathetic one.

The trick is figuring out not just what Zenos wants (because that's immediately apparent), but unlike most why he wants what he wants requires reading between the lines a little. TL;DR: he is only able to connect with people through violence, and because the PC is the only one who's ever been able to stand up to him he's become very fixated on them.

Back in Stormblood he fit the expansion specific mold, that being "tragic figures shaped by their circumstances" albeit without the sympathetic backstory that defined Yotsuyu and Fordola.

I don't like the train of thought that villains antagonists must have some je nais se quois to be "worthy." We know little and less about where Endwalker's story is going to go, what its themes are going to be, and so on and so forth. Zenos is also meant to be unlikable.

I can't tell people whether or not Zenos is a good or bad character; that's subjective. I don't think he's a bad character, though he is unsympathetic and being sympathetic seems to have been deemed a mark of "good antagonists" in this game. So...