Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Bright-Flower]

I think Ran'jit was overall handled better in the story.

He does have the annoying 'you lose now' moment and somehow we're able beat him at the end because...I guess just vertical mmo power scaling, but where Zenos is basically portrayed as untouchable, Ran'jit is presented as a threat but like he has to actually try and feels like he can be thwarted. Instead of 'beats you easily, beats you easily, oh you're level 70 now so you can beat me' we see him having to flee when Titania attacks his forces, we see Thancred dunk on him and knock him into the hole, we're able to fight him in an apparantly even enough match before that when the viera stun him so we can get further inside, then Thancred is able to beat him going all out before we finally fight him.

I think I may have liked Zenos better in SB if he was closer to that. Someone strong and of comparable power to us but not 'no chance, no chance, okay now you can fight him' it felt a lot better with Ran'jit. It also helps that unlike Zenos he had an actual stake in the plot even if we only start to see hints of that toward the end. My only real issue with Ran'jit is I feel like he should have died after the duel with Thancred, leaving Vauthry floundering on what to do without him to better explain the disorganized state we find Eulmore in. The final duel with him doesn't really add anything except I guess making us feel strong because we lost to him before I guess.

[Vyrerus]

I think Ran'jit was overall handled better in the story.

I don't think so.

Ran'jit is exposited as being untouchable by your same allies that later go on to battle an original Ascian. It's silly precisely because what's being exposited is drastically different from what's being shown in gameplay. He also doesn't consistently use his same moves. He never uses the Mega Raiton again after the first encounter. He only seems more integrated with the plot because he has many interactions with your NPC allies. His role could basically be filled in by any bad guy the writers wanted to use, but it's easier to reuse the same guy over and over.

I don't know why you say Zenos had no stake in the plot. Zenos drove the entire plot of 4.0. The attack on Rhalgr's Reach was his response to us destroying that prototype and killing its associated squad. He's the commander for both fronts, but leaves Doma in Yotsuyu's hands, because the imperials found Shinryu bound by Omega. He let the Doman Liberation Front grow by deciding not to kill those villagers. He had Fordola imbued with the Resonance. Just because they're not on your butt 24/7 doesn't mean a villain doesn't have stake in the plot. It just means they're a power bottom. /wink

[Kesey]

I don't think so.

Ran'jit is exposited as being untouchable by your same allies that later go on to battle an original Ascian. It's silly precisely because what's being exposited is drastically different from what's being shown in gameplay. He also doesn't consistently use his same moves. He never uses the Mega Raiton again after the first encounter. He only seems more integrated with the plot because he has many interactions with your NPC allies. His role could basically be filled in by any bad guy the writers wanted to use, but it's easier to reuse the same guy over and over.

I don't know why you say Zenos had no stake in the plot. Zenos drove the entire plot of 4.0. The attack on Rhalgr's Reach was his response to us destroying that prototype and killing its associated squad. He's the commander for both fronts, but leaves Doma in Yotsuyu's hands, because the imperials found Shinryu bound by Omega. He let the Doman Liberation Front grow by deciding not to kill those villagers. He had Fordola imbued with the Resonance. Just because they're not on your butt 24/7 doesn't mean a villain doesn't have stake in the plot. It just means they're a power bottom. /wink

The opposite is true. Zenos had a very hands off approach and didn't drive his narrative at all. Stormblood's narrative was driven by the characters who were constantly acting in ways to oppose the empire. Zenos just stood at the top of that structure. I'd even argue Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach was worst moment written for his character because it put a passivity and a "I'm better than you" attitude that plagued his character up to today.

Ran'jit, on the other hand, was actively pursuing the Warriors of Darkness. Granted he also did not drive the narrative but was able to put stress and suspense into the narrative to be impactful toward getting the resolution.

[Vyrerus]

The opposite is true. Zenos had a very hands off approach and didn't drive his narrative at all. Stormblood's narrative was driven by the characters who were constantly acting in ways to oppose the empire. Zenos just stood at the top of that structure. I'd even argue Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach was worst moment written for his character because it put a passivity and a "I'm better than you" attitude that plagued his character up to today.

Ran'jit, on the other hand, was actively pursuing the Warriors of Darkness. Granted he also did not drive the narrative but was able to put stress and suspense into the narrative to be impactful toward getting the resolution.

Zenos attacks the Reach = We can't contest the Empire like this, have to go to the Far East. Narrative driven.

Zenos refrains from killing us and Yugiri, since we lit a fire under the Domans. He further refrains from killing the Domans, allowing them to muster force and storm Doma Castle. Narrative driven.

The thing you say plagues his character is basically the main pillar of his character.

Ran'jit and his encounters are just punctuation marks at every villa we visit in Shadowbringers. They don't add anything other than an encounter with Ran'jit, and they are annoying. They specifically exist to have some face on our bad guys, and to create a more personal story for driving up NPC drama. Ran'jit beleaguers the narrative, and the stress from the weight he adds to it is dropped as easily as it is picked up.

[Kesey]

Zenos attacks the Reach = We can't contest the Empire like this, have to go to the Far East. Narrative driven.

Zenos refrains from killing us and Yugiri, since we lit a fire under the Domans. He further refrains from killing the Domans, allowing them to muster force and storm Doma Castle. Narrative driven.

The thing you say plagues his character is basically the main pillar of his character.

Ran'jit and his encounters are just punctuation marks at every villa we visit in Shadowbringers. They don't add anything other than an encounter with Ran'jit, and they are annoying. They specifically exist to have some face on our bad guys, and to create a more personal story for driving up NPC drama. Ran'jit beleaguers the narrative, and the stress from the weight he adds to it is dropped as easily as it is picked up.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when characters "refrain" from actions it drives the narrative... I could have sworn that characters with faces and npc drama are the cornerstones of character driven storytelling. Characters, on both sides of the story, drive the action by doing actions. Ran'jit does what Zenos cannot.

But yeah man, Zenos yawning from the throne really helps the narrative. It's not like we've seen many threads about the failure of his character and this is the exact reason why every believes this. Stormblood would have been better for Zenos if he was shown to have been training for next encounter with the WOL and doing research that lets him mount Shinryu. Instead he implies orders and gets bored.

[Lord_Umbra]

What is it Ran'jit does though in our first fight he nearly gets bopped by us they didn't establish him as true threat Zenos just walks around menacingly occasionally attacking & we get him down barely any health for a game play & story perspective we last much longer against Ran'jit then our Zenos encounter, the fact alone that Ran'jit has to use most of Alte Roites kit just to fight us shows him to be weak from the start & not much of a threat to the WoL.

Then every other encounter with Ran'jit after he either flees like a coward after speeches on his toughness Ilh meg or he gets easily bopped by bleeding Rescue & one hit by Thancred down the pit for someone who can sense even invisible people he isn't very aware of his surroundings, then he's fought to essentially a stand still against Thancred & retreats instead of going to find us? Ran'jit should've been killed from the story at this point cause he was Thancreds villain not ours he was just an annoying mosquito for the WoL as shown by the final encounter where we bop him in like 5mins depending on Job.

Sit on the Throne being bored what.. during launch he had few scenes in the throne room & in those he was doing things with troops wasn't until the meanwhile scenes in ShB that he's sitting around being bored, after his death he was fairly active in his scenes seeking us & then his body/black rose & his father.

Without Zenos attack on Rhalgers we have no reason to go to Doma & the Resistance would continue the operation with us which as we saw with just the Alliance alone we probably would've lost as they almost stopped us at the Gate of the Castle & we would've had to contend with the Garlean Doman units that in MSQ we stop from joining the fight since we have sway with them but without Doma part we have none of that & we'd be most likely outmatched.

Zenos actions constantly push the plot forward, Zenos could've killed us & Mhigan/Doman Resistances in both our first & second encounters but his character doesn't want that he doesn't want broken prey he wants people to hope & grasp for freedom with every ounce of their being to get stronger.

Ran'jit having to pursue us and constantly failing/fleeing for most part was bad writing it served to make Ran'jit a joke then a threat.
Zenos simple did not need to chase us. The show of power in both stories shows Zenos as a true threat he never felt need to seek us we'd seek him.

[Kesey]

Sit on the Throne being bored what.. during launch he had few scenes in the throne room & in those he was doing things with troops wasn't until the meanwhile scenes in ShB that he's sitting around being bored, after his death he was fairly active in his scenes seeking us & then his body/black rose & his father.

Yes, he gets off the throne to attack Rhalgar's then returns to said throne for the rest of Stormblood. He murders people who bring him bad news and grants Fordola the resonant. All this does is prove he's a strong psycho sitting a top the power structure. But the fact that he doesn't bother to be in Doma when we're clearly setting it's liberation in motion, shows he doesn't think of us as a threat. We are not a real threat to him until we best Shinryu.

And I understand the attack on Rhalgar's motivates the heroes to go to Doma. But Zenos just reacts that it was a waste of time, instead of we broke a sword, maybe I need to be prepared to fight them again.

Zenos has so many wasted moments where if he did something or tried to yearn for something, he could have potentially been viewed as a good villain by the community. His character development is so lack luster and they broke it in Stormblood.

[Mahoukenshi]

Zenos actions constantly push the plot forward, Zenos could've killed us & Mhigan/Doman Resistances in both our first & second encounters but his character doesn't want that he doesn't want broken prey he wants people to hope & grasp for freedom with every ounce of their being to get stronger.

No. If Zenos had killed us, the game would have been over. What could have had happened for some sappy cliché drama was the WoL injured with a unique debuff (for a the next couple solo duties) and the WoL - within their silent MC personality - being temporary despirited in what to do next. The Scions state, though, that even our presence was not enough to stop Zenos, but the so-desired "consequences" could have been driven home better with us actually being despirited and the no-name NPCs being affected by it during dialogues/cutscenes or so. Ignoring maybe a few forum outcries of how weak-willed/sissy the MC had been *lol*.

@ Zenos: My main complaint during those segments was always how the power-level discrepancy between Zenos, the WoL and non-WoL fighters was ultimately an all-or-nothing deal. Non-WoLs were always a disappointment and waste of time and we as the player of course the sole exception with each new battle.