Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Lauront]

Just a few notes in response:

I think it's normal for Zenos's popularity to have gone down since SB. Most of what we saw from him since have been one-liners (with the "My friend... my enemy" line getting old real quick), and then him sitting on his throne for half of the cutscenes. The sheer fact that the devs added Zenos as a character in Dissidia 2 years after Stormblood speaks to his continued popularity I think.

That's part of the issue and why people are getting bored of him. Many of us we're also satisfied with the conclusion he got in SB. With Fandaniel now taking on the plot point of "further mysteries", it seems even less likely to me they'll carry any over to him and again, even if they did, if it entails writing an ancient persona for him to add "depth" it's essentially a new character. My hope is that they know when to stop with him and stick to their guns on their approach for him.

I think Zenos is our only match. Yes, we bested him in SB, but he bested us twice before that. We keep one-upping each other as we evolve. The Zenos of today is more powerful than the Zenos we defeated in SB. In contrast, we defeated most of the other threats on the first try IIRC (I think the exception is Ranjit? I can't quite remember. The Elidibus as Zenos fight doesn't count because we got Called by catboi).

He did but that's before the WoL surpassed him. He had the Resonance implanted by that point so the logic behind that isn't exactly the most solid, but bearing in mind it's a knock-off Echo over which he already had a degree of mastery, he nonetheless lost - of course the WoL is partly aided by Hydaelyn's blessing, so there's that. I don't really count Ran'jit as it's not clear to me that he was more potent than the MC at all, beyond the MC being yeeted out. The answer SE gave on him also didn't do much to really address the issue. My issue with this line of reasoning is that it's based on what point the antagonist engages the MC. Had Emet engaged the MC before he had all that stored up light, before the other champions could join them and before the soul rejoining, they could've gone with similar forced losses. There would be little point from a narrative perspective, but the point I'm making is it's largely a matter of choice and has little bearing on how potent the adversary truly is. Zenos simply came after you at earlier points but chose to bide his time. I'll grant that he is potent with his false echo, otherwise he'd play little part in advancing the Zodiark plotline, but to me some of it stems from smokes and mirrors resulting from that confrontation with Elidibus and what we now know is a false equivalence between Elidibus and Emet-Selch. But they can shape this sort of thing as their writing requires it, so we'll see where they take it.

I'm clinging to the hope that the devs will explore him further and make all of these things (Emet, the memories/visions, etc) a compelling part of his character. After all, the Ascians were extremely boring for most of FFXIV, up until ShB.

I hear that often but it's not my sentiment and it basically is something I see come up from people who didn't pay particularly close attention to what Elidibus and Lahabrea were saying, or just wrote it off as "lies" etc., but to me they were indications that they had a deeper backstory. With that said, the Ascians were there for a significant part to enable other antagonists whilst they took their own scheme to fruition. But there was always the understanding that there was more to them provided one didn't just dismiss it as lies.

Yes, it's from there. Here's the section:

"One might think it a blessing to be born into the ruling family of a vast and powerful empire, but for the young Prince Zenos-great grandson of Solus zos Galvus, revered founding father of the Garlean Empire-it was a curse.
From the beginning, Zenos was alone. His lady mother succumbed to illness shortly after bringing him into the world, and his lord father was seldom present, occupied as he was with his military campaigns and political maneuvering. And while the prince was surrounded by countless servants, they were as machina to him, trundling about on invisible rails, bereft of independent thought. Nor did he hold the learned men and women who served as his tutors in much higher regard. His brilliant mind found their lessons-their very existence-monotonous, and he preferred the silent company of books.

With such an upbringing, he could not choose but be different from other children. Indeed, it could be said that he was never a child at all. Innocence and playfulness were quite alien to him, the former expunged by his earliest schooling and the latter afforded no outlet. His days were uniformly joyless, and he went about his scheduled tasks with apathy. Thus did he pass his first four and then summers-in a steel-grey blue of tedium."

That makes me question whether his father's presence would've even made a difference. If he came to a similar view of his father (and his words to him as he died suggest he would have) and his mother, who's to say he wouldn't just add them to the list of adults who bored him? Or that other children wouldn't simply bore him as time went on? The issue here seems to be rooted in the fact that he simply can't relate to others. In a way, it's similar to the angst Emet-Selch experienced while he was surrounded by the sundered life forms, with whom he couldn't relate (and that is largely because of objective differences with them), strengthening his yearning for the return of his people. Whereas with Zenos, without ever having been capable of forming such a connection, it just results in a sense of emptiness and boredom. I suspect that's why they think they're in a better position to not write him a tragic backstory. Because that potential was never there. He only experiences fleeting moments of joy through his clash with the MC. I get that motivationally, but as someone who's more interested in the world and its lore, it has limited appeal to me.

[waifugenerator]

Not every villain needs to be Emet! Having a character with zero human qualities can be just as compelling as a multifaceted villain. Again with the antisocial analogy, don't think of Zenos as a boring person but rather someone who lacks the necessary qualities to even be a person. Emet was necessary to show us that Ascians aren't just avatars of evil, Zenos does NOTTT need this treatment and doing so would just devalue Emet and the rest of the ancients' character arc

[sciencebot]

I'm going to put a post behind spoiler boxes because it's quite long and rambling, but the TL;DR is: Zenos is an interesting choice to me because of his thematic resonance to the story so far. To my reading, he's the ultimate expression of both the Ascian and Garlean ideals, and what essentially the whole core story has been discussing and asking questions about so far. It's a chance to confront what I think are some of the central ideas driving FFXIV's story by punching them directly in the face.

So, you have the Ascians: Their plan is to raise up Zodiark, whose power will let them seed the star with new life, and then kill all that life to bring back their fellows. Listen to Emet-Selch talk about the Sundered. They're lesser beings, they're unworthy, their reduced aetheric density and inability to create makes them sickening reflections of what used to be. The Ascians have power, so they can enforce their will. The Sundered don't have power, so they don't deserve to stand toe to toe with the real people who actually matter. Emet-Selch's grandson was a disappointment because he didn't have the same power as an Ancient. The Warrior of Light is a disappointment because they don't have the same power as an Ancient.

And this ideology of power being everything is reflected in what the Ascians create. It's not an accident that the Allagan Empire expands and crushes their enemies with an iron fist, doing massive injustice and inflicting untold suffering on all sorts of people in the pursuit of greater strength and control. Political power, science, magic, capital, creation-- any form of power they can get their hands on, at any cost. They're literally destroyed when a fancy power plant is too strong for them. You see what's happening here, right?

When the tribes are being pushed back by the Eorzeans, the Ascians show up to offer them rituals to summon Primals. By destroying life and causing harm to the world around them, they can become stronger and in that strength -- with their will, conscience, and humanity suppressed in service to something greater -- strike back against their enemies. The problem is, it's not just destructive to their foes, but corrosive to themselves. It's those same themes echoing again. They echo down sidequests, they echo down other forks of the MSQ, in large and small ways. Nanamo, Raubahn, and the Monetarists. The Ivy. Hien's questions about reclaiming the throne. Yotsuyu's whole arc. Eulmore's tower and the rickety town below. The Weapon arc, and Bozja too. FFXIV is regularly examining what power is, who has it, what kind, what they use it for, and what the effects of it are.

The Garlean Empire is set up by Emet-Selch as a successor to the Allagans, in the same mold. It has that same ideology as the Ascians, on a smaller scale: that people who aren't the right people are somehow lesser for it. That strength is what matters. The only way a lesser person can earn real distinction and citizenship in the Empire is to literally give their strength at arms to the cause. That cause is itself to trample all over the supposed lesser beings. It is to seize what they want at the point of the (gun)sword. The Empire conquers and expands, it puts its boot on countless necks, it gets deep into unethical science just like the Allagans, and nobody has the right to say anything about it because nobody can muster enough force to do so.

It's a harmful way to live, both to the people who encounter it and to the people who perpetuate it. The plan is for it to eventually generate a Calamity that's going to be equally destructive to people in the Empire, whether that's through its own hubris or inspiring uprisings against it or some combination thereof. It's very successful at this: not only does it actually work once, it does a second time in an alternate future, and it had at least one more good shot at it foiled by the WoL.

But that ideology isn't just a government-level thing, right? It affects the people who are living under it too. Look at Varis: while Emet-Selch cared for theater, he bans everything that doesn't meet the standard of the Imperial censors because it's not something that generates strength. The ideology is reinforcing itself, becoming more concentrated. And then he finds out that Garleans are actually not the people who matter, like he's been told his whole life! Instant inferority complex. The only solution he can think of for this is to accumulate more power by becoming one of the worthy few-- speedrun killing untold numbers of people to return everyone to Unsundered status and then fight the Ascians themselves!

Look at Zenos, too: Here is the Ascian and Garlean might-makes-right ideology crystallized into one person. Strength is all that matters, so he becomes strong. Getting what you want, without regard for the cost to other people, is what's done, so he gets really good at that. Grasping for more strength, using it to crush others in the hopes that one of them might eventually inspire an uprising against him is literally the whole thing he's doing in Ala Mhigo. Zenos is power as conceived by the Garleans and Ascians, not held in thrall to conscience or pity or kindness, used only to get what you want and forget the consequences. He is everything about the way those powers operate and think distilled into its purest form.

If power is the only thing that matters, running into someone more powerful than you is a calamity. Varis gets in the way of what Zenos wants, so he cuts him down. Garlemald is a smoking ruin, because why would Zenos care about that? They're weak and not worthy of his attention. Elidibus' plans and schemes revolve around the Empire and Zenos' body, but the instant they become inconvenient to Zenos, he throws them into chaos and sends Elidibus running for the hills. They have made the perfect monster in their image, and it turns out that when you take that ball and run with it, it makes a monster that terrifies even them!

The only thing that brings Zenos any joy is the WoL. The one person with enough strength to face off with him, an actual equal, someone he can finally think of as real, in the same way that Emet-Selch was hoping he could feel about the WoL. And the only response he has to it is the thing he's been taught, the ideology he's been surrounded with since he was born. He accumulates power and makes plans to accumulate more power, including planning on cracking Zodiark open like an egg and sucking out all the gooey crystal juice. If the world burning is a necessary piece of that, hey, fine: he can make that happen, and what are you going to do about it? Because if you're not strong enough to keep up, you don't get a seat at the table.

Zenos is everything you've come up against in the story coming back, echoing, repeating itself for emphasis. It's like poetry, it rhymes. He's the thesis statement, the central thing the story has been circling around, discussing, thinking about, but magnified and centralized. Confronting the question of Zenos is a wonderful way to put a bow on the story of the Empire, the Ascians, and the Unsundered all in one go.

It's tied in closely to another question for the reader to consider: hey, the WoL is strong too, right? What's the difference? Is it that they're tempered by conscience? That they have friendship and companionship? Their strength is used for service: to defend, rather than to seize and destroy; is that it? Is it just circumstance, would there be no difference if things shook out differently? Maybe it's just because power-hungry monsters drop better loot than dirt-farming peasantry on average!

In the end, the writers' answers and the readers' answers will probably diverge based on your experiences and your viewpoints. But I can't imagine Zenos, and the contrast between him and the WoL, not being an important part of shading both that question and answer. That is an opportunity that is unique to the character he is, in the position he's in, from the history he has, that I feel like can't be effectively replicated by just bringing in some new guy.

[sciencebot]

By the way, you mentioned Emet liking theater and Varis banning it. I've also seen various people say that Zenos grew up reading Emet's plays/books but I haven't found that information myself. Is this in one of the lore books?

It's been a few years, so I misremembered slightly: Varis didn't fully ban theater, he instituted a censorship system and banned anything that wasn't sufficiently favorable to the Empire. That gets brought up in the first quest for Return to Ivalice, "Dramatis Personae".

It is a little-known fact, outside Garlemald at least, that the late emperor was a devoted patron of the arts who supported various theater troupes to the tune of much coin.

Indeed, Solus was so enamored of the Majestic players that he ordered the construction of this very airship, that the troupe might perform in every corner of the Empire.

When his grandson took the throne, however, everything changed.

Now, all theater troupes domestic and foreign must submit their works for approval by the central imperial board of censors. If a play is deemed vulgar or inflammatory, it is banned and the troupe denied their writs of transit. The worst offenders? Well, they are never heard from again.

This policy has effectively left playwrights with one of two options: compromise their creative integrity to curry favor with His Radiance, or put down their quills altogether.

As for Zenos reading Solus' work, I haven't heard about that, so I don't have any idea! I know the Zenos short story says he spent his time reading as a kid, though I don't think it says exactly what.

[Cilia]

Zenos' last line before his intended suicide - "Farewell, my first friend. My enemy." - says in six words as much as Emet-Selch's numerous monologues about his backstory and motivation did.

Even if his backstory and motivation don't make him interesting or likeable, I still find him more pitiable than hateful.

[Grimr]

OK, so I can see Zenos is acting as the Wild Card. Square Enix has committed to a path, even if we don't know what it is, but that path is relatively predictable with the status quo we have now (especially given that what would have happened had we not been spirited away from Ghimlyt was explained to us in 5.0).

Since the Warrior of Light was nowhere to be found, Gaius and Estinien eliminated the threat of Black Rose (for now), Zenos went home to kill Varis, and now the whole war has taken a new course.

For the record, it was zenos himself that utterly destroyed black rose. He doesn't want anything to get in the way of his duel with the wol. Of course with zenos even existing it brings up the point of the eighth umbral calamity occurring. I can see no way it occurs with zenos at the very least with black rose. He would destroy it every timeline. It would of had to happen another way or it would of produced a light void the exactly opposite of the 13th shard.

[Cilia]

Anyone who's taken basic psychology courses will tell you that "Nature vs. Nurture" isn't even the right question; both shape an individual's mindset, the debate is over how much weight each has.

Yes, even with both Varis and his unnamed dead mother hypothetically being loving parents to him it's possible Zenos could still have ended up the way he is, but it would be much, much less probable. Further what we have about his upbringing suggests (if not outright states) he had no positive attachments to anyone at all - having never been given the chance to be a normal child, attended to and raised by servants who would cater to his every need and whim. Being as academically gifted as he was, blessed with Garlean constitution, afforded every privilege in life but lacking any sort of attachment to anyone, and raised in a culture that glorifies domination through force, that Zenos turned out the way he did is... no surprise at all. (And that's not even getting into whatever experiments Emet-Selch and/or Varis implicitly performed on him.)

Aside from his sword instructor (who he easily bested after a bit of improvisation), the PC is the first person Zenos has ever met with the ability to deny him. That he would have an unhealthy, obsessive attachment to them is... also unsurprising.

Of course Zenos sees the PC as a kindred spirit - they keep showing up in the only place he feels alive, always ready with new tricks and techniques to catch him off-balance. It's interesting, to him. It breaks up the tedium his life has been so far.

One of the things addressed in the presentation is that while the PC may not feel the same (or outright despise him), Zenos sees them as a genuine friend; the issue is that he's so horribly, horribly maladapted the only way he knows how to express himself is by trying to kill them.

And this is all without getting into whatever may be revealed about him in Endwalker.

Not every antagonist needs to do this:

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Apropos of nothing... Anima is showing up in some capacity, and while it's possible she's just the Matanga primal, given her personal connection to Seymour in X I can't help but wonder if there might not be more to her than a boss fight for the sake of having a boss fight.