Should Dark Arts Come Back in 6.0? If so, What Should the Skill Do?

[Shurrikhan]

But on the subject of dark arts itself... honestly just make it a damage boost like flight or fight.

Please, no.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

But on the subject of dark arts itself... honestly just make it a damage boost like flight or fight.

Delirium and blood gauge just doesn't feel right on the job.

...the iconic Dark Arts made a insulting mockery of, as just a mere passive damage buff, and essentially a clone of Paladins' and GunBreakers' damage buffs, is a terrible idea, in my opinion... I will hard pass on that as much as I reject the mockery of Dark Arts that got slapped onto The Blackes Night.

While on the other scale, I agree that current Delirium "does not feel right", as that is also a mockery of and a disgrace to, what Delirium used to be,
that needs to removed in 6.0 and replaced with some other thing.. that is not another clone of some thing else.

As for the Dark Knights' BlackBlood gauge... the idea of it is fine, and could fit the Dark Knight... It just needs to be made not a WAR clone gauge,
and made either more interesting, and/or have the Dark Knight build it up faster and interact with it more, than just WAR clone using it on WAR clone: BloodSpiller wishes it was a Fell Cleave.

If the dev team re-introduces the Old Dark Arts action to Dark Knight game-play in 6.0, it needs to not be the SB spam version, and needs to be based off of its original HW version, in the sense of being similar to the original HW Dark Arts, but not the same.. and rather, as a improvement of the original design.

[Colt47]

...the iconic Dark Arts made a insulting mockery of, as just a mere passive damage buff, and essentially a clone of Paladins' and GunBreakers' damage buffs, is a terrible idea, in my opinion... I will hard pass on that as much as I reject the mockery of Dark Arts that got slapped onto The Blackes Night.

While on the other scale, I agree that current Delirium "does not feel right", as that is also a mockery of and a disgrace to, what Delirium used to be,
that needs to removed in 6.0 and replaced with some other thing.. that is not another clone of some thing else.

As for the Dark Knights' BlackBlood gauge... the idea of it is fine, and could fit the Dark Knight... It just needs to be made not a WAR clone gauge,
and made either more interesting, and/or have the Dark Knight build it up faster and interact with it more, than just WAR clone using it on WAR clone: BloodSpiller wishes it was a Fell Cleave.

If the dev team re-introduces the Old Dark Arts action to Dark Knight game-play in 6.0, it needs to not be the SB spam version, and needs to be based off of its original HW version, in the sense of being similar to the original HW Dark Arts, but not the same.. and rather, as a improvement of the original design.

What was the heavensward dark knight like? I never even played that version.

[shao32]

What was the heavensward dark knight like? I never even played that version.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...k-Knight-Guide

Here a link from a guide of the job, the skills and mechanics are explained pretty well, to see it in action i think there is a few vids but with this guide you can understand whats going on.

the resume is DRK activate darkside and this stance drain you MP slowly but allow you use several skills and increase your damage.
DRK was bases on MP management and he use dark arts and other skills in consequence, the MP priority was 1º carve and spit+DA since added 350p extra to the skill, 2º dark passenger, 3º DA+ soul eater. when you wasn't using DA or Mp in general you finished your main combo with delirium finisher and when you have MP for DA souleater you finish with that skills.
DRK keep rolling a dot called scourge on the target, it was an GCD so added variety and if i remember well it didn't broke combos.
Power slash combo was only to stablish aggro at the begining.
DRK use to have procs based on parry with reprisal and low blow aka the stun, ganing uses of bth skills when he parry attacks, the job haved dark dance witch increased you parry chances for a fair period of time.
DRK use to gain MP with blood weapn that lasted 14s and his recast was 40s back then, and blood price wich get MPby being hit.

all this parry/being hit mechanics mechanics maked DRK a default main tank due he wanted to being hit as much as posible to get procs and MP to increase his dps, was a really fun job, and the management on AOE situations with abyssal drain uses and the big matrix dodges he did when dark passenger blind effect + extra evasion of dark dance was really fun handle mass pulling.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

What was the heavensward dark knight like? I never even played that version.

it was very very different from now... just off of the top of my head, I will probably miss some things...
Tank stances were still a relevant gimmick... you had Grit, which reduced damage taken but reduced damage dealt, and DarkSide, which increased damage dealt, and the original DarkSide actually had MP degeneration, while the later version just turned off natural MP regeneration.

there were two separate GCD WeaponSkill combos, one for damage and one for enmity generation, as Tank Stance did not have the x10 enmity generation thing, so you hade to put actual effort towards maintaining enmity; while the damage-dealing 1-2-3 combo also had two 3s to pick between. the combos shared Hard Slash as their 1, the enmity combo was "Spinning Slash" as the 2, and "Power Slash" as the 3, while the original "Delirium", was the second 3 of the damage-dealing combo.

Dark Knight also had a low-level AoE other than Unleash, called "Dark Passenger", the Rampart role-action did not exist back then, and Dark Knight had a unique-in-appearance damage reducer called "ShadowSkin", we also had a additional defensive ability called "Dark Dance"... Unleash had a MP cost, and Unmend had a chance to proc a effect that made the next Unleash cost 0MP, so that was a bit weird...

Blood Weapon at least functioned the way that it was intended to, as well, compared to the current half-broken Blood Weapon...
there was also a strong GCD WeapnSkill that inflict a DoT, "Scourge", that a lot of old Dark Knights miss...
and Dark Knight had a unique/weird action called "Blood Price", which would restore MP when ever the Dark Knight was hit with attacks...

Carve and Spit was also one of the Dark Knight's best actions, as it was a actual threefold attack... in terms compared to the modern, which is one-hit potency 450 and 600MP, the old Carve and Spit, if we still had it, would have been three hits, either three potency 100 hits, and 600MP every hit, or Dark Arts would buff the damage and turn off MP gain, making it three hits potency 450 each... whether 1800MP or a potency 1350 attack, it was much better back then.

the healing effects from Abyssal Drain and SoulEater were also more effective, stronger and healed better, and Salted Earth was far more use-full...
The current Salted Earth is on a 90 second CD, while its DoT is potency 60 ticks over 15 second, where as the old Salted Earth was on a 45 second CD, while its DoT was potency 75 over 21 seconds...
almost all of the old skills, that were not deleted, are inferior to their old versions... >.>;

Shao32 mentions some of the things that I did not immediately remember, as well... such as that the Dark Knight had a few parry gimmicks, and the original Low Blow and Reprisal, before those two were converted into role actions.

and then we have old Dark Arts. It cost the Dark Knight MP and would grant the Dark Knight a 20 second passive buff, while any actions that had a Dark Arts bonus, would activate that bonus if used while Dark Arts was active, and Dark Arts had various effects, like strengthening or adding to defense actions, or making offense actions hit harder, or even completely change why the Dark Knight uses Carve and Spit, between MP gain or damage dealing.
Dark Knight was also not much of a "Burst" Tank. It was a lot more of a sustained damage Tank, with just a small burst on the side.

old Dark Arts had some design issues, which were only made worse in 4.x, before 5.0 deleted it, which is the topic and point of this thread... TheoryCraft, Debate, ideas, etc.. for how to fix the design issues of old Dark Arts and improve it, as a redesigned old Dark Arts in 6.0, is a interest for some old Dark Knight players.

[Shin96]

The idea of Dark Arts being a skill used to expand actions sounds like a very good idea to me! If you'd use it on Souleater it ends up with another animation and a different potency, etc. I generally think if they applied this scenario on DRK it could enhance the experience and you'd also enjoy using Dark Arts because frankly it just sounds like fun.

[currentlemon]

Perhaps Dark Arts should be given a cooldown? Maybe have a recast timer like TBN (15 seconds). It'll still cost MP of course, but having a 15sec recast timer would solve any worry for Dark Arts spam. Heck, I wouldn't mind Dark Arts and TBN working in conjunction with each other.

• Both skills would share the same recast timer.
• Dark Arts would be used for offense while TBN is used for defense
• Dark Arts would still enhance a few skills like it did back in 3.0 and 4.0.
• TBN would work the same as 5.0. If the shield broke, it grants "Dark Arts". But instead of giving the player a free Edge or Flood of Shadow, you are free to use a Dark Arts enhanced skill. This rewards players for playing well defensively.

I don't know. I never played HW or StB DRK, but I still want to contribute to the discussion. I really would like to see the real Dark Arts come back.

[Kalaam]

Perhaps Dark Arts should be given a cooldown? Maybe have a recast timer like TBN (15 seconds). It'll still cost MP of course, but having a 15sec recast timer would solve any worry for Dark Arts spam. Heck, I wouldn't mind Dark Arts and TBN working in conjunction with each other.

• Both skills would share the same recast timer.
• Dark Arts would be used for offense while TBN is used for defense
• Dark Arts would still enhance a few skills like it did back in 3.0 and 4.0.
• TBN would work the same as 5.0. If the shield broke, it grants "Dark Arts". But instead of giving the player a free Edge or Flood of Shadow, you are free to use a Dark Arts enhanced skill. This rewards players for playing well defensively.

I don't know. I never played HW or StB DRK, but I still want to contribute to the discussion. I really would like to see the real Dark Arts come back.

This doesn't sound bad.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Most of my old Dark Arts remaster ideas have hit either the "but that would be a damage loss" wall, or the "but that would be a liability" wall, so I am not certain at this point, how to design Dark Arts... Other than a boring or dull design that would kill the point of my attempts to re-design/re-master the ability... while on the other scale, my ideas also hits the "lazy and simple preferred" wall.
A (common?) issue brought up against if old Dark Arts were to return, is that some people express(ed) that it should not be a liability... (A lot of/some?) Dark Knight players would prefer that Dark Knight is "just as easy" and requires just as little effort, as the other tanks, while Dark Knight actions have to be equal to the other tanks, without Dark Arts...

so.. like, Dark Arts is not allowed to have offensive or defensive effects, under those limitations, because other tanks do not need to use a additional ability, for their defensive strength and damage potential to be as good as other tanks, and Dark Arts is also not allowed to cost MP or other resource(s), like BlackBlood gauge, under those limitations; as (a lot of/some?) Dark Knights do not want Dark Arts to be a liability or a "damage loss", or a necessity that the Dark Knight is reliant on(SB DA spam = ew.)...
to re-design Dark Arts under these guidelines has proven difficult, as a Dark Arts like this would be.. not much of interest, and little akin to the iconic and fun old HW Dark Arts... hieh, I am not certain how to re-design Dark Arts...

My #1 most lazy idea at the moment, that may fit the bill, would be if Dark Arts is a oGCD ability with a CD, no resource cost, and its effect only slightly alters the effect of a action, changes what a action does, but this change has to fit every afore-mentioned guideline, or adds self-healing effects to actions; while Dark Arts itself could be either a short duration "all GCDs/oGCDs used in its duration" passive buff, or the action is a "stacks"-style passive buff that has you spend its limited stacks/uses at leisure.

here is a quote of a comment that I did post a few pages ago, to use as a reference and share my own idea again... any way, my actual response:

Perhaps Dark Arts should be given a cooldown? Maybe have a recast timer like TBN (15 seconds). It'll still cost MP of course, but having a 15sec recast timer would solve any worry for Dark Arts spam. Heck, I wouldn't mind Dark Arts and TBN working in conjunction with each other.

• Both skills would share the same recast timer.
• Dark Arts would be used for offense while TBN is used for defense
• Dark Arts would still enhance a few skills like it did back in 3.0 and 4.0.
• TBN would work the same as 5.0. If the shield broke, it grants "Dark Arts". But instead of giving the player a free Edge or Flood of Shadow, you are free to use a Dark Arts enhanced skill. This rewards players for playing well defensively.

I don't know. I never played HW or StB DRK, but I still want to contribute to the discussion. I really would like to see the real Dark Arts come back.

mn.. your idea does look good, I suppose... first of all, it looks like we agree about to place a CD on Dark Arts, and we share the line of thought about that would deal with the spam issue at least a little bit... And I like the idea of Dark Arts and The Blackest Night shares CD, and function as a choose-one pair... on the other scale, pure offense Dark Arts could be a thing, but I will also mention again a point that I have made several times in other threads.

The Blackest Night's if broken bonus being a offensive bonus.. is a literal liability to the Dark Knight, and in my opinion, is a awful design. the mockery of Dark Arts that The Blackest Knight has, needs to be deleted, and in this case(your idea, I mean) where we give up on how old Dark Arts did function, to make it a pure offensive buff, then my idea that The Blackest Night needs to be pure defense, becomes relevant to your concept.

Change the if broken bonus of The Blackest Night to be either further defense or a HP-restore related effect, then.. going with your idea, we can have pure offense Dark Arts and pure defense The Blackest Night, and since they would share CD, this would be a matter of forced choice, always Dark Arts unless you need The Blackest Night, which I think would work out well enough, as far as design goes.

what do you think of this?, CurrentLemon. I think that it would be a good idea, to merge my lazy idea with your more thought out idea, so I would see fit to have your opinion. And, of course, the opinions and input of other Dark Knights would be good, as we all need to work together, to create a concept that we can all agree on.

[currentlemon]

snip

Okay, if we were to take Anahlise's consideration, 6.0 Dark Arts would go as follows:

• Dark Arts and TBN would work in conjunction with each other.
• The two skills would share a 15 second cooldown. This is to prevent the spamming of both skills during fights.
• Dark Arts would be as an offensive toolkit, while TBN would be used defensively.
• Dark Arts would work similarly in 3.0 and 4.0. Use it to buff DRK's weapon skills
• TBN would work similarly to 5.0 TBN. However, instead of granting a free Edge or Flood of Shadow upon a broken shield, it will be a defensive buff of some sort.
• The defensive buff from a broken TBN shield could be a mitigation bonus or HP restore.

That looks pretty good. Hopefully, this new Dark Arts can lead to some discussion and SE will take this into consideration. (I pray to God that they are at least reading the forums).