8 man endgame content should go back to the 2.x method (no baby mode) Hear me out...

[DinahDemiurge]

Here's the thing. I have been asking some people I used to play with during the coil days and the big difference between modern raiding and 2.x... And besides the baby mode versions of the encounters, a big part of the motivation to do savage was taken away. In 2.x there was two motivations to improve and do coil.
1. Gear/looking cool.
2. The lore.

The lore was locked behind improving as a player and dare I say it, being social(I know, being social in an MMO is kind of crazy these days). Motivation to improve as a player should not be taken away in 3.x and onward. This is what motivated me to improve. I wanted to see the next part of the bahamut story along with my FC. That motivation is lost in subsequent expansions. I personally don't care about looking cool, but the lore is all done in a few hours with each 8-man raid series release, which is sad. Gear cannot be the primary motivation because gear is outdated incredibly fast in this game, so there really is no point in trying to get full sets or anything from a practical standpoint. I miss the days of wiping on 2nd coil and learning the encounters and being rewarded with the next piece of lore. There was such a payoff at the end and progressing through the 3 coils was much more memorable than any subsequent expac. That kind of motivation is gone, and I wish we would go back to having it in some way. Subsequently, relic style weapon improvement should also be gated at LEAST behind savage primal fights as well. A devotion of time should not be the only requirement.

TLDR: I miss skill locked lore content, and I realize my opinion doesn't matter really and I just enjoy the nostalgia of 2.x

[LisSquid]

I hear you, however that's just not what the game is like now. I made a request to make coils mandatory for MSQ and was met with similarly negative responses.

I am of the personal belief that if we corralled people into tough content, it would be ROUGH for a while. I mean, really rough. People can't wrap their heads about meteors in CT.. However, I think it would improve overall player skill by saying "This is the content. This is what we expect from you, and we expect you to do it."

Locking glamour behind content is a great way to encourage engagement.

[KageTokage]

I honestly kind of appreciated the "door" mini-bosses like the ADS and Faust that were designed to make sure your party was even capable of outputting enough damage to beat the enrage on the actual boss of the raid in advance, as well as having a mini-dungeon of sorts to explore.

I don't think lore and story should ever be locked behind a significant skill gate, though.

[Goji1639]

Umm, no.

Honestly, static groups/guilds with schedules and obligations are the absolute worst thing about MMO's. It's like having a job, only you don't get paid and your boss is some poorly supervised 14 year old kid who spends all of his time online. Save that garbage for Savage, and leave Savage FAR detached from the games general content.

I wouldn't mind significant solo challenges being attached to story content, though.

[Taikugemu]

Yeah, no. Locking lore with a very high skill ceiling is just plain stupid, specially when savage is there for people who crave challenging content.

I made a request to make coils mandatory for MSQ and was met with similarly negative responses.

If they nerfed coil to bring it to the current raid level? Sure!

But if you think people should have to DF into some shit like T9 to progress on the MSQ, you're out of your mind.

[Moomba33]

I played back in the Coil days. My friends and I didn't get past t5 until well after Second Coil came out. We didn't get past t9 until HW came out and we could unsync it. It was really frustrating and demotivating.

I'm glad that HW added story mode raids. Lore should be for everyone imo.

[ForteNightshade]

I hear you, however that's just not what the game is like now. I made a request to make coils mandatory for MSQ and was met with similarly negative responses.

I am of the personal belief that if we corralled people into tough content, it would be ROUGH for a while. I mean, really rough. People can't wrap their heads about meteors in CT.. However, I think it would improve overall player skill by saying "This is the content. This is what we expect from you, and we expect you to do it."

Locking glamour behind content is a great way to encourage engagement.

It is far more likely to have the precise opposite effect; instead driving those players away from the game entirely. You're essentially telling people who may have zero interest in hard endgame content they're now forced to partake in it should they want to see the story unfold. Put another way, how likely do you think people would appreciate FFX's conclusion being locked behind completing all the mini-game side missions? Many will simply quit the game, or never bother playing with it to begin with.

That isn't to say they shouldn't increase the overall difficulty as I think most content in this game is far too passive. However, there's a difference between asking people to put in more effort and expecting them to learn Savage.

[Duskane]

think id rather mix of the two
use the design philosophy of Coils but also have savage and normal mode

[ItMe]

You want the 8-man endgame content to supply juicy lore?
Isn't that what Eden did???

Through those raids you learned:
- what the world swallowed by light is like
- why it is the way it is
- that ascians can be corrupted by aether (Eden itself)
- it explains what happened to The Burn and discusses how what they learn here might inform a "solution" to that.
- It gives us another glimpse into the story of The Shadow Lord
- and in the end we see what the future of The First might look like.

I think Eden Litany(?) also briefly touched on the elves that turned into Wetland Wargs in Lakeland, but I'm falling asleep and can't think straight lol.

But yeah, like... Eden was jam packed with lore yo.
And it was, like, lore that directly ties back into the main story, main characters personal history (like Ardbert's), and deepens your understanding of the world.
Is this no good?

[Kamatsu]

It is far more likely to have the precise opposite effect; instead driving those players away from the game entirely. You're essentially telling people who may have zero interest in hard endgame content they're now forced to partake in it should they want to see the story unfold.

This is exactly what would happen. Classic example is Guild Wars 2, both the base game and with it's 1st expansion Heart of Thorns.

- Base game was very casual and able to be done solo, apart from the last story mission. LOTS of ppl complained about this, and the vast majority of players did NOT complete it till ANet relented and made it able to be done solo rather than forced group-dungeon.

Regarding the 1st expansion: leading up to it an extremely vocal minority demanded that ANet make the game way harder, less able to be done solo and way more group focused. ANet listened to them and Heart of Thorns was exactly that... much harder, more group focused, locked many core functions, features and such behind group-only fights. Result?

- Lots of complaints of how hard the game was for 1-3 weeks
- After 2-4 weeks there were lots of complaints about how empty the game was, how in both expansion & base game ppl were struggling to make groups, find ppl to do group events, etc.
- ANet suffered a 67% loss in the 6 months after the launch of the expansion, the biggest loss they have ever suffered in a 6-month period.

Lesson? Locking lore & story behind 'difficulty' does not 'encourage' players to 'get good' as the vocal minority would have you believe. Instead as soon as the game gets too difficult and they find lore, story, progression through MSQ, etc gets blocked by something they can't easily get past or get carried past... they will quit the game and go play something else. They will not keep hitting their heads against a brick wall trying and trying and trying again.

You'd have better luck calling for the Savages/Ultimates to be looked at if they are too 'easy'. If ppl are beating them too easily.. maybe they need to be tuned better, have the ilvl synching adjusted, etc. Or asking for more savage content in total (ie trials/raids without a savage version). This would get more support from more ppl, vs trying to lock lore/story behind hard content that will lock the majority of the game's players from experiencing it.