Better finish Delubrum now because it will dead cotent very soon

[TurtlesAWD]

If they're gonna increase rank, I'd guess maybe by like... 5, tops. The UI for the essences/skills doesn't really look like it has much more room for new stuff. And I don't see them dragging the max rank up without an associated set of skills or items to use that require it. I dunno I feel like 15 could be the cap for bozja in its entirety.

[Wrestlefire769]

You can't just hold the player's hand all the time then all of sudden let go and push them into a snake pit going "learn!!"

A lot of people would like to see that, AND the resulting loss in subs.

[Avatre]

You know it occurs to me that the doom mechanics might be an attempt to get people to bring an essence other than platebringer for once since extra defensive stats doesn't save you, and oh my god all of the sudden I want every boss to have doom.

I've only ran it twice as WHM, but I use the Templar essence since it boosts damage as well as HP and defence. I also keep a LOT of Arise on me when I go in there(second run I went through refreshing that 6 times - so at most 35 uses of that since I had some, not sure of exact number, from the run before).

[Packetdancer]

Losing 60k mettle because of 10 deaths as a brand new player and one wipe due to group not knowing about an enrage mechanic wasn't as fun.

But loosing like 50k points in the run (at best) ? No way. That mechanic really sucks.

First, and somewhat tangentially, I didn't realize there was an enrage mechanic in DR. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, since CLL has at least one (the Lyon side-fight DPS check in the Dawon fight). Still, I'm now wildly curious which fight has an enrage.

More on-topic...

It's quite possible even on a far-from-perfect run to escape with a fairly small mettle loss; I think my last run last night, when I was tired and blew a couple of mechanics entirely I still got out with only like 6k mettle loss (at rank 15, so with the largest mettle penalties possible in there).

Does not change the fact, of course, that losing mettle feels bad. And it's certainly possible to lose more on particularly messy runs; I have a rank 15 friend who somehow lost ~100k(!!) mettle yesterday on a run. (Which was, uh, apparently quite the exciting run.)

But a 50-60k mettle loss is far from guaranteed, if that helps at all.

(The other silver lining is that there's evidently an interview out there where they mention the future Bozja stuff with 5.5 won't use mettle. Meaning once you hit rank 15 (max rank) and have 700k mettle, you can go unlock the Savage version of Delubrum Reginae and then forget about mettle possibly forever, no matter how much you lose in DR runs thereafter. Which is probably a relief to anyone who wants to try the savage mode.)

Though, I do think it's really unfortunate that you can lose mettle in Castrum Lacus Litore and Delubrum Reginae in the first place, at least as things stand.

Now, I don't object to losing mettle in skirmishes and critical engagements on death, because you are also earning mettle; if you die once or even twice you can still come out net-positive on mettle, just by a much smaller amount than otherwise. But CLL and DR give you (many) potential opportunities to lose mettle, and absolutely none to gain. (I will not count the mettle reward for the weekly quest to clear DR, as that's a reward from a quest rather than from the duty.)

And I feel like that's a massive oversight; if you have a chance to lose an achievement currency of some kind in doing content (which I don't object to), then that same content ought to provide a chance to gain that currency. I feel like clearing one of the bosses in Castrum should give you mettle equivalent to a skirmish reward at your rank, and clearing one in DR should give mettle equivalent to a critical engagement at your rank.

Having the penalty without the reward bothers me on a system-design level; it certainly won't stop me from gleefully queuing into DR again as soon as I'm done work today, but it feels a little bit too punitive in design.

But then, there are other changes I'd make anyway besides awarding mettle. I'd move Castrum into the same sort of queue-for-it duty that DR is, so you aren't reliant on sitting in a Bozja instance waiting for a critical engagement to pop that may or may not fill depending on who's in your particular instance; putting it into a queue-for-it would let people get into a Castrum run much more easily. I would also make at least one stage of the new relic stuff -- probably the Loathsome Memories -- drop in Castrum, so a clear of Castrum would give you 3 of them.

That way, 5 runs of Castrum would be enough to finish that step out for a weapon; it'd make that initial grind less onerous and encourage people into Bozja content, and it would keep Castrum instances more easily accessible so that people just reaching that part of the Bozja story wouldn't slam into a wall when they try to find a chance to run the duty.

I enjoy Castrum and I love Delubrum Reginae; I want to find a group to run the savage mode of DR with (and probably obliterate my entire 700k mettle) so badly. That doesn't mean I don't think Bozja is free of flaws, some of them fairly major.

I come from FFXI where a death cost you exp and enough exp loss cost you levels.

The "LEVEL DOWN!" popup text with the somber musical sting -- as opposed to the usual cheerful "LEVEL UP!" -- was simultaneously both the saddest and the most hilarious thing I've ever seen in Eureka. (And seeing it once was enough to convince me never to attempt Pagos content again when there were less than 6 people in the zone.)

Bozja is much kinder in that sense, since it implements old-school XP debt (i.e., you can lose XP to below what's necessary for the level you're at, and need to earn it back to continue progressing) as opposed the actual de-leveling/de-ranking.

[Packetdancer]

Everyone happy with it keeps talking how "it's finally challenging content that pushes players into learning", but forget that the bold will always be an issue because this is a raid that is really deep into a game that until now never bothered to demand anywhere near as much from the average player. Those players won't try to learn because unless they're serious raiders then 95% of their pve experience is facerolling. They will just A) Complain Bozja raids are too difficult and B) Stop trying to clear or only clear once.
You can't just hold the player's hand all the time then all of sudden let go and push them into a snake pit going "learn!!"

So, I should start this with a disclaimer that I actually see nothing wrong with the Bozjan duty difficulties, whether with Red Choctober, math-robot Critical Engagement (MATH ROBOT MATH ROBOT), or the CLL and DR instanced duties. That they're content a bit more challenging than the usual is great; I certainly find the critical engagements much more interesting than just the NM fights in Eureka (or FATEs in general), because they have much more varied and interesting mechanics. You're not usually going to find a FATE out there with math plus the Forced March mechanic.

Yes, if it's content people want to do, it will "push them into learning"... which is okay because it's optional. Things like on-level Extreme, or Savage, or Ultimate, or the Baldesion Arsenal -- or Bozja -- don't need to be simple and can be a challenge, specifically because people don't have to do them.

But I agree with you 100% that the idea that "challenging content will make people learn" is just demonstrably untrue.

I feel like some people want to engage with this game like they would with Dark Souls: to challenge themselves, even if that means throwing themselves against a wall repeatedly until they can break through and savor the taste of victory in so doing. But some people want to approach this game like Breath of the Wild or even Animal Crossing, where they want to use the game as a relaxing way to unwind. Play with housing, chill out and fish, run the main scenario questline and enjoy the story, etc.

And neither is wrong.

Unfortunately, I feel like we-as-a-playerbase (or a more specific subset of a playerbase) sometimes tend to think in absolutes, and assume that the Breath of the Wild group are all just the Dark Souls group and that they don't know it yet. (Or for either group to look at the other group with disdain, but that's a whoooole different problem.)

Sometimes that theory is right; I was one of the latter, casual group, and now I'm in my second tier of raiding savage -- I'm not parsing orange or anything, but I'm generally more of an asset than a liability to a group -- and am salivating at the idea of finding a group to wipe to Delubrum Reginae (Savage) with. So yep, I was inspired to learn and improve, no question; I am a vastly better player skill-wise than I was at the beginning of 5.2 when I started raiding savage. (Or, really, dying -- a lot -- to savage; progression took A While that first tier as I unlearned Many Things about how to efficiently play my job and learned Many New Things about said job's optimal playstyle in their place.)

But it is not always right.

My best friend iRL is a fairly casual player. I don't mean unskilled, but I mean in how she engages with the game; she falls into that Breath-of-the-Wild crowd. Despite this, I once took her into Hades EX (while it was current content) because she was curious what the hell I was doing with friends when I was sitting there with my headset on going "Clock positions!" and whatnot. But while she gamely tried, she found people calling mechanics in Discord overwhelming, much less the feeling that "if I screw this up, I make everyone fail, instead of just myself", and did not enjoy the experience of spending two hours dying repeatedly in the same fight as everyone learned mechanics.

Overall, the experience was miserable and she left it quite clear on the fact that she never wanted to bother with current extremes again, because that didn't sync well with what it is she seeks from the game for her personal relaxation/gaming time.

Which is fine; she's happy to do the main scenario, level jobs, run roulettes, and engage with the game the way she wants to engage.

Trying to force folks who don't actually enjoy that kind of content -- who play the game for story and to unwind, rather than to challenge themselves -- into more difficult content will not, as noted, necessarily instill them with a desire to improve. It is equally likely to instill them with a desire to find a different MMO that is more understanding of how they want to engage with games.

And that doesn't usually end well for the MMO they're leaving in droves; I'd say "go ask Carbine Studios about how well that works out", but they ceased to exist in the wake of WildStar's closure.

(Mind you, this doesn't mean I think the low-level content in this game doesn't need a serious tune-up in some form. I know a lot of casual players who were severely disappointed in Castrum, Praetorium, and the Crystal Tower raids; they were built-up in story as these Big Epic Fights and then were just chaotic facerolls where everything dies as soon as it appears and the new players have no idea what's going on. And there's a difference between 'casual players can engage with this content' and 'I could probably have one of those teeter-tottering drinking birds in old cartoons play my rotation for me in here and still clear'; the latter is more likely to disappoint everyone, not just those looking for a challenge.)

((And evidently, my brain has booted into Wordy Mode today. Apologies! I shall be Quiet for a bit.))

[Derio]

I lost 70k as a tank on my first run. It was very exciting and I enjoyed it alot. Took roughly 1hr and 15 minutes to complete. My gripe is the rewards. Once I get the judge glamour, I would not run that content ever again simply because the rewards are not worth it. Many people will only clear it once and never go back in again. That instance has 0 effect on the relic.

If one run gave you 5 memories then yes it would be better. My biggest problem with Bozja is this relic is almost designed to where you are better off not doing Bozja content to work on the relic. Bozja progression should be faster than running 24 man crystal tower raids, but its not. IMO this is the worst relic grind out of the 4.

[Deceptus]

I feel like some people want to engage with this game like they would with Dark Souls: to challenge themselves, even if that means throwing themselves against a wall repeatedly until they can break through and savor the taste of victory in so doing. But some people want to approach this game like Breath of the Wild or even Animal Crossing, where they want to use the game as a relaxing way to unwind. Play with housing, chill out and fish, run the main scenario questline and enjoy the story, etc.

And neither is wrong.

As you so eloquently put in the rest of your post:

But what is wrong is a certain subset of players who are trying to force their vision of the game, their playstyle on other people. They have to come to terms with the fact that the vast majority of the player base will NEVER step foot in EX content or higher challenge.

This is coming from someone who wants people to play better but understands reality.

The majority of players are casual.

[Puremallace]

As you so eloquently put in the rest of your post:

But what is wrong is a certain subset of players who are trying to force their vision of the game, their playstyle on other people. They have to come to terms with the fact that the vast majority of the player base will NEVER step foot in EX content or higher challenge.

This is coming from someone who wants people to play better but understands reality.

The majority of players are casual.

If I wanted hardcore challenging raid content I would reinstall WeakAura, DBM, Recount, RaiderIO and go back to WoW. FF14 is just not where I go to get some hardcore raid challenge especially with arbitrary time sinks with mettle loss designed by guys who think taking content from FF11 and just throwing it at FF14 players like we will accept it. FF14 has 8 man savage content with loose knit groups who only see each other each raid tier and WoW has 20 man Mythic content with tight knit groups that are normally friends IRL

If this is the direction Square wants to take the game then they better massively revamp grouping, raid comp, raid frames, loot incentives and multiple other areas of these raids. Right now these loot incentives would have been useful at the start of the most recent savage tier not 5+ weeks later.

This is not going well for Square right now because when it comes to this area of the game they do not understand their own player base. My aggravation is this is extremely easy to fix. Raise the ilvl on the gear to 520 and get rid of the Mettle loss. Doom mechanics I can deal with but facing the reality of having to burn weeks again grinding Bozdja raids makes this something I will never touch again.

[TurtlesAWD]

I've only ran it twice as WHM, but I use the Templar essence since it boosts damage as well as HP and defence. I also keep a LOT of Arise on me when I go in there(second run I went through refreshing that 6 times - so at most 35 uses of that since I had some, not sure of exact number, from the run before).

I know what you mean, I grabbed 5 phoenix downs before I went in as ninja for my first run, and then used every single one on the first boss! Got a little spooked, but fortunately outside the last boss my particular group didn't have quite as many deaths on any other single fight.

[TurtlesAWD]

As you so eloquently put in the rest of your post:

But what is wrong is a certain subset of players who are trying to force their vision of the game, their playstyle on other people. They have to come to terms with the fact that the vast majority of the player base will NEVER step foot in EX content or higher challenge.

This is coming from someone who wants people to play better but understands reality.

The majority of players are casual.

Out of sincere curiosity, I really need to know what casual means in the context of bozja and the bozja dungeons, because it seems like the "casual" players are the ones who make it harder on themselves by not using essences or lost skills. Like, if we assume "casual" in this context refers to players who want the easiest time, I would assume that would be players loading up with 30 potions and phoenix downs before they get in, right? Instant no-CD resurrection that costs no mana and everyone can use?

Like if DR was intended to be the kind of content that only hardcore players were supposed to do, they would... not have that item right? If it's offered but people choose not to use it and complain about the content being too hard, does that seem like maybe the issue could be lack of clarity/understanding on bozja items rather than encounter difficulty?

And maybe this isn't a question directly towards you even though I'm quoting you, it's more generally like this question of who the content is "for" comes up pertaining to casual players, but this conversation seems like it's got some assumptions baked in that maybe don't exactly track across the what's actually in the game.