New player looking for some details

[Undeadfire]

It's fine man no need for apologies, it's a simple miss understanding that you were talking about Warrior, or any tank.

Anyway....

This is my personal opinion but I meld Tenacity and don't understand why people say to avoid it.
As a tank it doesn't matter how much damage you do, what matters is your survivability. And tenacity literally increases not only your damage but makes you take LESS damage and receive MORE healing.
Imagine how much damage your healers could do if they could heal you up faster and go back to DPSing.
What's the point of melding, for example, double Determination for the damage you don't need instead of melding double Tenacity for damage + defense + higher amount of healing. This stat is literally made for tanks.

Going full Tenacity will cut down your Rdps by extreme levels and it doesn't provide a good alternative to your healers when they're only going to Off-GCD heal and only use GCD for AOE Heals/Regen, Solid Healers always avoid GCD heals as much as possible. Losing multiple thousands of Rdps for roughly 5-10k Healing difference won't change anything and merely kill the groups overall DPS. Gnb/Drk/War have their own self heals under GCDs and Off-Gcd which makes them overall good Main tanks, Pld cannot main tank since Clemency is useless except for prog to survive something you're learning, however Paladin is the best off tank at current raid tier. Paladin is 2nd to Gnb, has Veil, Cover and syncs with the Ninjas Trick Attack hardcore.

This stat has been considered of tests all the way back in 4.0 and remains a trash tier stat for being a weaker Det.

As a tank it doesn't matter how much damage you do, what matters is your survivability. And tenacity literally increases not only your damage but makes you take LESS damage and receive MORE healing.

This game is ran by maths and no content is ever strong enough to warrant it (Yes including Ultimates). Speedrunning groups ALWAYS aim for max uptime and Crit farming which will completely overkill Tenacity build tanks trying to feed the healers more, the damage difference Ten build vs Crit Build is too huge I'm not even joking. Right now we adapt strategies to reduce movement for healers and remove any means of making the Blm move. The only healer who should priority over a Paladin is Whm if a very rare strategy calls for better overall group raid DPS, other than that you don't punish a GNB/DRK Main tank during their burst window on Trick Attacks and Paladin lacks Burst window which warrants a rare time Whm > Pld.

[Lumivyory]

Going full Tenacity will cut down your Rdps by extreme levels and it doesn't provide a good alternative to your healers when they're only going to Off-GCD heal and only use GCD for AOE Heals/Regen, Solid Healers always avoid GCD heals as much as possible.

I never said I go full Tenacity. I simply prioritize it over other materia.

TL;DR: TEN is not a bad stat, it's just the worst one on tanks. Good on gear, awful to meld, there's no point. It's the same logic behind Slaying Accessories on Tanks from ARR/HW. If you don't need the defense, do not gimp yourself and your party, just mitigate properly in the scripted timeline. Healers don't need you to hold their hand.


Unfortunately, you are operating under the assumption that Damage, Healing, and Damage Taken are on a level playing field. In fact, you put damage below those other planes, when two tanks (or two optimized healers) doing proper rotations do more damage combined than any single DPS in the game, which matters a whole lot when you're pushing enrages in real content.

Yeah, but healers need you to be able to stay alive without them spam healing you. I'm a healer main.
I hated STR accessories on tanks and still think it's the stupidest thing ever. I absolutely despised running into STR tanks as I would always have to heal them so much more because of how damn squishy they were. VIT tanks were a blessing.

I also don't care about "enrages" and any savage content. Meld whatever you need for that but tanks don't need high damage in casual content. I'd rather be alive than do damage because wiping wastes a lot more time than having lower damage. And I personally have seen quite a difference in damage taken between the time I forgot to meld and after.
I meld Crit, Skill Speed and Direct Hit as well and I had no problems getting thought content fast and alive.

[Payotz]

Yeah, but healers need you to be able to stay alive without them spam healing you. I'm a healer main.

However, healers don't spam heal you even if you don't meld TEN, especially in casual content.
Regens + SoulEater(and their counterparts) + Tank OGCD Heals (on some tanks, like Equilibrium and Aurora) and Tank mitigation do their job to mitigate auto attack damage. That's the main reason healers do DPS in the first place.
The game's not like WoW where you have to spam heal the tank because it's low pot. An OGCD can literally fill up 50% of the tank's HP in one go.

I'd argue that the only casual content that requires bigger heals is leveling, and even then, it's not very much.

[Lumivyory]

However, healers don't spam heal you even if you don't meld TEN, especially in casual content.
Regens + SoulEater(and their counterparts) + Tank OGCD Heals (on some tanks, like Equilibrium and Aurora) and Tank mitigation do their job to mitigate auto attack damage. That's the main reason healers do DPS in the first place.
The game's not like WoW where you have to spam heal the tank because it's low pot. An OGCD can literally fill up 50% of the tank's HP in one go.

I'd argue that the only casual content that requires bigger heals is leveling, and even then, it's not very much.

Right now? Yes, it's not that hard to heal tanks in casual content.
But we're not talking about the present, nor are we talking about Tenacity here because back then Tenacity didn't even work the same way.
I was talking about the times back when tanks were using STR accessories which greatly reduced their HP. That was also the time when tanks would drop tank stance for more DPS which would make it even more of a nightmare to heal them.

[Undeadfire]

Right now? Yes, it's not that hard to heal tanks in casual content.
But we're not talking about the present, nor are we talking about Tenacity here because back then Tenacity didn't even work the same way.
I was talking about the times back when tanks were using STR accessories which greatly reduced their HP. That was also the time when tanks would drop tank stance for more DPS which would make it even more of a nightmare to heal them.

Even so not a reason to. Vit only added HP back in the older days and it was reasonably too hard to control anything without the STR addition, was a much larger value going for this system than trying to boost healers.

[Lumivyory]

Even so not a reason to. Vit only added HP back in the older days and it was reasonably too hard to control anything without the STR addition, was a much larger value going for this system than trying to boost healers.

I'm confused by what you're even talking about right now. Reason for what? I never said anything against the current system. I'm more than happy that we no longer need to see those tanks in full Slaying accessories and with no tank stance dying to trash mobs.
The only reason I mentioned that was because the post I was replying to compared melding damage on tanks to having STR accessories back in the day.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Right now? Yes, it's not that hard to heal tanks in casual content.
But we're not talking about the present, nor are we talking about Tenacity here because back then Tenacity didn't even work the same way.
I was talking about the times back when tanks were using STR accessories which greatly reduced their HP. That was also the time when tanks would drop tank stance for more DPS which would make it even more of a nightmare to heal them.

Thing is though, SE screwed up by not including native STR on those accessories in the first place. Twice it occurred iirc where STR accessories were favoured over VIT accessories, first was in Gordias, second was the beginning of SB. I only have personal experience with SB, and it wasn't even so much using STR accessories because 'muh DPS', it was out of basic necessity to actually hold aggro. Most tanks struggled to hold aggro early SB even in stance during the levelling process. I even recall recommending someone complaining here on forums about aggro, since STR was not added to levelling accessories between 61-69, I recommended using lvl 60 STR accessories, and got thanked afterwards as it made said persons life easier managing aggro.

Once 70, most tanks kept the STR accessories, because why cuck yourself out of bad game design.

[Undeadfire]

Doesn't matter anyway...

I also don't care about "enrages" and any savage content. Meld whatever you need for that but tanks don't need high damage in casual content. I'd rather be alive than do damage because wiping wastes a lot more time than having lower damage. And I personally have seen quite a difference in damage taken between the time I forgot to meld and after.

Even if it is casual content it doesn't warrant it. Unless it's Relict/Emerald (Or you're a Raider) you're likely going to be Ilvl capped in the Dungeon/Trial and rotated cooldowns are strong enough to mop the floor with wall pulls. Dungeons is you wall pull > pop rotated cooldowns > Get low HP > Healer Off-Gcd heal > Repeat. Getting targets killed much faster will save a lot more HP damage vs trying to reduce it more this is illogical and Tenacity will not do this for you, roughly 10% reduction is really bad. And if you get a Healer who spams GCD Heals, my friend he is a Healer who is ignorant, or listened to Mentors awful advice.

The only trial who puts the threat in Tanks was Thordan Ex back in 3.1 and he was a comparison to Savage raid, everything else are extremely lenient.

[Lumivyory]

Even if it is casual content it doesn't warrant it. Unless it's Relict/Emerald (Or you're a Raider) you're likely going to be Ilvl capped in the Dungeon/Trial and rotated cooldowns are strong enough to mop the floor with wall pulls. Dungeons is you wall pull > pop rotated cooldowns > Get low HP > Healer Off-Gcd heal > Repeat. Getting targets killed much faster will save a lot more HP damage vs trying to reduce it more this is illogical and Tenacity will not do this for you, roughly 10% reduction is really bad.

I hate wall to wall pulls and I died more than once to them in 71+ content. Hell, I've even seen a tank die to a big pull in Stone Vigil and other low level dungeons.
And as a healer my oGCD heals are never enough for such pulls, I end up spamming Cure II and even that doesn't always save the tank if my Bene is on CD. In what kind of perfect world do you live where oGCD heals are enough for a wall pull?
Not everyone raids and has the best gear, I don't even have a single class that reached ilvl500.
I'd rather take more time killing mobs than wipe and waste even more time.

[Undeadfire]

I hate wall to wall pulls and I died more than once to them in 71+ content. Hell, I've even seen a tank die to a big pull in Stone Vigil and other low level dungeons.
And as a healer my oGCD heals are never enough for such pulls, I end up spamming Cure II and even that doesn't always save the tank if my Bene is on CD. In what kind of perfect world do you live where oGCD heals are enough for a wall pull?
Not everyone raids and has the best gear, I don't even have a single class that reached ilvl500.
I'd rather take more time killing mobs than wipe and waste even more time.

Then it's a failure on the tank for not outputting the max it can do. Reprisal, Arms Length, Rampart, 90 Second cooldown, short cooldown, leg kick, burn their damage off-gcds. If it goes South the other tactic is kiting the pull, kiting makes it very difficult for mobs to attack you because they have to all push each other trying to reach you, this can reduce damage more than Tenacity does since you'll be cutting off 50% of the mobs auto attacks.