Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[Seraphor]

Shadowfang was a combo finisher like Armour Crush. It's now a standalone GCD skill.
It's been removed from the combo but it hasn't resulted in any button consolidation at all.
If you actually consolidate NIN's combo skills, you save 2 buttons at most, but then NIN's rotation is 50% hitting 1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-2 etc.

Do you really want DRG to be 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2 with occasional Jumps?

Again, how do you accommodate for MNK's Perfect Balance, Form Shift or SAM's Meikyo Shisui?

"Pressing a button is pressing a button. Pressing 1 is the same as pressing 2 to me. It's the effect on the button that matters, if I press 1 and deal damage and press 2 and get a shield, THAT feels different to me. If I press 1 and do damage, and press 2 and do damage, how is that different from pressing 1 twice?"
90% of any given DPS jobs skillset basically just deals damage. I'm sure you're not saying 90% of their kit could be replaced with 1 button...

You say consolidating buttons makes room for new skills, but then how long until you want those new skills consolidated and we're back where we started? After all, they all just deal damage.

[Deceptus]

There's definitely room for button consolidation, but simply turning every combo into one button isn't the best way to do this. Many jobs have skills that are mutually exclusive, you can't use one while the other is available, or some skills simply become redundant in the presence of others.

BLM: Combine Ley Lines and Between the Lines. Have B2 upgrade into Freeze and F2 upgrade into Flare.
NIN: Combine Dream within a Dream and Assassinate.
SAM: Combine Meditation and Shoha. Upgrade Shinten into Seigan when under Merciful Eyes.
DRG: Combine Fang and Claw with Wheeling Thrust. Delete Piercing Talon.
PLD: Combine Requiescat with Confiteor. Combine the effects of Intervention and Cover, or simply buff one and remove the other.
GNB: Probably would make the Gnashing Fang combo here a 1 button combo, the same as Continuation. So that you simply alternate between the two just like MCH's burst phase.

SMN:
- Combine Enkindle (Pet ability) and Enkindle (Demi Primal) - These two abilities can't be used at the same time.
- Combine Dreadwyrm Trance with Summon Bahamut. Can't use Bahamut without using DT first. DT already turns into Phoenix after Bahamut anyway.
WHM:
- Trait that upgrades Cure 1 into Cure 2 and adjust MP accordingly (500-750 range)
- Trait that upgrades Fluid Aura into Assize and change Assize name to Flood. FA is useless as it is, and low level CNJ / WHM mana regen sucks. Give FA an 8% mana gain on use.
- Trait that upgrades Medica into Cure 3 and simply extend the range on Cure 3. Silly both exist. Or call it medica 3 for the eventual Cure 3 that is going to have to be made later.

Do you really want DRG to be 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2 with occasional Jumps?[/I]

Dragoon is probably the worst example you can use against button bloat and they always have been. There is literally zero functional difference between 123-4 / 567-8 vs 1111 / 2222 other than the amount of buttons that requires it. One requires 8 slots and one requires 2.

[Achantion]

Shadowfang was a combo finisher like Armour Crush. It's now a standalone GCD skill.

That was just an example of how you could handle certain moves in a worst case scenario.
Ideally I'd stick 'em all in a combo, or one of button with cooldown.

If you actually consolidate NIN's combo skills, you save 2 buttons at most, but then NIN's rotation is 50% hitting 1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-2 etc.

Do you really want DRG to be 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2 with occasional Jumps?

It's indeed very convenient if you ignore oGCD's and combo's that could have been added instead in your examples. The whole idea is to create more combo's with a specific purpose instead of damage dumps.

See the following example:
1 = three hit basic damage combo
2 = two hit combo ending in a dot
3 = four hit combo ending in a resource stack (let's say 3) that can be spend on 4.
4 = Ability with cooldown that doesn't break combo
5 = random oGCD buff
6 = random oGCD group buff
7 = random oGCD attack with follow up attack
8 = Shadow fang like stand alone

3 - 5 -3 -3 - 3 - 4 - 8 - 7 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 2 - 1- 4 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 4 -2 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 3 - 8 etc..

Less buttons than most existing classes, yet more engaging because it has multiple things to do with different pre-requisites and other stuff.

Again, how do you accommodate for MNK's Perfect Balance, Form Shift or SAM's Meikyo Shisui?
[/I]

I don't see the issue here? These skills right now are needed because of the way the game is designed right now. Just adept these skills to work in the new system.

Meikyo Shisui as an example: You either use this skill to get your 3 sens (which are all combo finishers so there is no problem at all, as this could perfectly work in a consolidated approach) or to quickly refresh buffs. In case of the second option, just change the way skills are designed with the new system in mind. Easy fixes are to stick the buff in the combo finisher, create oGCD's for these buffs, or just live with it that you can't use Meikyo Shisui to achieve these, which is perfectly valid too.

You say consolidating buttons makes room for new skills, but then how long until you want those new skills consolidated and we're back where we started? After all, they all just deal damage.

Obviously not, if each "chain" is designed with an idea/mechanic in mind. You yourself suggested to combine skills like Ley Lines and Between the Lines, so you obviously understand some skills belong together.

On the other hand, it's easy to see skills like Vorpal Trust and Jump don't belong together, as Jump includes movement an animation lock, unlocks Mirage Dive, etc.. Meanwhile Vorpal Trust, True Trust and Full Trust are simple reskins of each other that work identical and only Full Trust serves a purpose, so nothing is lost consolidating these.

[Achantion]

I reached my character limit on my last post, but the core of what I want to say is that each button should FEEL different.

If I press 1 and do damage, with nothing else, no animations locks, no buffs, debuffs or cooldowns. That feels very different from pressing 2 and dealing damage and getting animation locked or pressing 3 and doing damage while being locked out of that ability with a 20s cooldown. There are to many combo's right now in game that don't FEEL different but at the same time are making sure we don't get new buttons because of the bloat they cause.

My earlier 8 button example would require 15 buttons in the current system. That's practically half a console player's buttons, which is absurd as it would only do 8 things. But in the new system you would have a lot of space filled for gameplay and would only be using 30% of a console player's buttons. And as I've shown before, it doesn't make it any easier to use.

EDIT: Simple example of why I want consolidation:
Think of the DRK how it currently is, and consolidate Hard Slash, Syphon Strike and Soul Eater into a single button combo chain. This would leave you with 2 buttons:
1. Spinning Slash > Reprisal > Power Slash combo chain. Executing Power Slash grants a resource stack (3), and you are locked out of this combo until this resource is depleted.
2. Scourge, now a short duration DoT that requires 1 stack of the resource from the former button. But has a 20 second cooldown.

By consolidating a combo chain, brought back 4 abilities that got deleted and linked them to a new mechanic to manage. Making the class both harder to use, but giving it extra options without require additional buttons to use and without taking away anything else.

Consolidate Unleash and Stalwart Soul and you regain an additional button, which could be used for another combo. Maybe one with an animation lock or a casting bar.

[Raikai]

You say consolidating buttons makes room for new skills, but then how long until you want those new skills consolidated and we're back where we started? After all, they all just deal damage.

You're completely ignoring the fact that the skills can do stuff like interaction, resource-management, etc. They can be something else than just an skill with a dps number to it.

About new skills being consolidated... It's inevitable. 3-4 expansions later, of course you'll have to revise everything and rearrange stuff to give room to more new stuff - That's exactly the premise of the OP. It's either that, or have your job never have anything new in future content. The way XIV leveling works is the same as WoW, you'll inevitably end with a bloat of unmanageable skills if you don't rework at some point. WoW though, lack severely at that because it "reinvents" itself with every xpac, and that's where the fault is.

[Seraphor]

Actually, I can see a case for SAM.
It's only the combo finishers that have unique effects, other than the two 2nd GCD's each applying a minor buff, so you could just have them as three buttons that cycle through the combo like Continuation, syncing up the first and second button presses so that you can switch between them on any given GCD, and apply the relevant Sen when completed. Meikyo Shisui could then fix each button at the last of the sequence until it's spent. My only issue is the discrepancy between the 3-combo Getsu/Ka and 2-combo Setsu finishers, and whether or not that would be too much to coordinate on the fly or if it would simply take a lot of getting used to.
This could then make SAM's combo system markedly different to the other melee and free up space for some more focus on Hissatsu skills.

I'm still not convinced about MNK and/or DRG though.
You say "the issue is it's designed that way" but then, it IS designed that way. MNK is 100% based around it's combo system, with each discrete GCD having it's own positional, it's own unique effect, and two skills to manipulate your combo progression. Your whole focus is on what part of the combo you are in on any given GCD, and muscle memory is very important for it.
I am all for making changes to some jobs, like SAM, to mix things up and create more variety between jobs, but in MNKs case, it's very much an intentional design choice, and by removing it's combo system you remove part of what makes it's specific job identity, and you also force MNK players to be constantly glancing at their hotbars to check what part of the combo they're on instead of relying purely on muscle memory. While this would be an issue for SAM only every 2nd or 3rd GCD, this would be an issue for MNK on every single GCD, while adjusting positions at the same time.

DRG is it's own beast, and unfortunately I haven't played it enough recently to be familiar enough with it's nuances to to make a solid case. However I know from optimising my MCH bursts lately that counting which Heat Blast you're on is essential in not clipping your GCDs (you need to hit 5 Heat Blasts and know when your 6th GCD is up so that you can get a Split Shot/Drill/Anchor in your Wildfire window as well) If you lose count and you go to hit Heat Blast as your 6th GCD again, it will fail, and you will clip, and you will definitely not fit a 6th weaponskill into your Wildfire.
You're watching your hotbar like a hawk at that burst moment, in order to hit your GCDs smoothly, and it requires markedly more focus than your 1-2-3 combo does. That's fine, it's a burst window, but it's not sustainable 100% of the time while also dealing mechanics.
But my reservation is that doing this to DRG's entire combo system, would turn it's entire rotation into this same GCD counting, hotbar watching exercise that MCH's Hypercharge/Wildfire window is. Instead of allowing your muscle memory to keep track of your combo progress, you're constantly counting "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5..." and/or constantly staring at your hotbars instead of the battlefield.


So I would say, in the interest of keeping jobs different and interesting:
Consolidate SAM.
Keep MNK as it is, it's combo system is it's signature.
DRG is a beast of a combo system and if it needs consolidating, it also needs some concessions elsewhere or some kind of rework to allow for it.

[Achantion]

I don't think muscle memory is that different between 1-2-3 and 1-1-1. As such I don't see why it wouldn't be able to work with DRG.
MNK would indeed require the most work to adept, because it's the most mechanically ingrained with the current system. On the flip side, MNK has been a mess for many years now and hasn't seen it's gameplay evolve since ARR, so maybe taking some more liberties here and re-imagining the whole job might be an option too.

Either way, I'm only suggesting consolidation isn't bad when used to evolve the game. Because most people opposing it in here seem to think consolidation will result in simplification, which isn't necessarily true. Yet cry out every expansion when half their skill bar gets deleted, which is a direct result of NOT consolidating.

[shao32]

If they consolidate combos into 1/2 buttoms at the end of the day they will reach the same point of where they have to remove or adapt skills to add new ones but with the big diference is they turned every melee into a single key spam fest, DRK gameplay in SB recive a lot of complains due dark arts spam and ppl want this back but instead of being a oGCD being our GCD system? ppl are complaing today in SHB about spam mechanics like inner release and actual Healers gameplay being extremly boring and uninteresting so basically turn every job in to have betwen 7-10s of spam the same key over and over again will be recive way more complains more sooner than later.

and my personal question, what happen when they reach that point? they will add more steps on the combos making the spam windows even larger to avoid removing skills? sounds like hella boring to me specially since i can't swallow current inner release windows i wont wanna play a game where that is basically 100% melee gameplay now.


I personally don't see the buttom bloat problem at all, i play with a gamepad on pc and still have the same double trigger shortcut aviable for me and that's 16 slots to fill, there is still to much room to add in to the jobs + they could upgrade and add several effects to the current combo steps that add new effects/procs/resource without the need of just add more fluff skills at the cost of turning our GCD system in to the spam fest to make space.

this game is not kingdom hearts or genshin impact where fast paced combat focused on quick decisions and fast dodges/blocks/parrys are where the dificult of the game is based and favors having combos in 1 buttom to let the player focus on other stuff, this game have extremly low combat pace with bosses taking a eternity to do anything in a choreographed manner, such change only will allow players to watch netflix more comfortably considering 99% of the content require almost nothing from the player so i wonder how much time will takes when someone say they just pass throught everything by presing 1-2buttons only and reducing the mechanical execution requeriments of our rotations are just only show how simple are actually designed all mechanics in this game even on savage and ultimate.

[Seraphor]

I don't think muscle memory is that different between 1-2-3 and 1-1-1. As such I don't see why it wouldn't be able to work with DRG.
MNK would indeed require the most work to adept, because it's the most mechanically ingrained with the current system. On the flip side, MNK has been a mess for many years now and hasn't seen it's gameplay evolve since ARR, so maybe taking some more liberties here and re-imagining the whole job might be an option too.

Either way, I'm only suggesting consolidation isn't bad when used to evolve the game. Because most people opposing it in here seem to think consolidation will result in simplification, which isn't necessarily true. Yet cry out every expansion when half their skill bar gets deleted, which is a direct result of NOT consolidating.

On the contrary, I've just explained why consolidation of those melee jobs actually makes them more complicated.
With individual steps of the combo having unique effects, you need to keep track of where you are in the combo, and as I explained with MCH's Heast Blast 'combo', essentially a 1-1-1-1-1-2 combo with weaving, you need to make sure you're counting your GCDs. If you don't, you miss that last '2', dealing 1/6th less damage with Wildfire and clipping your GCD which knocks your damage output down, potentially unsyncing your rotation if you keep doing it.

In other cases, muscle memory can do this for you, instead of counting 1-2-3, you're pressing X, Circle, Triangle, X, Circle Triangle... or whatever keys you've set them to. You know when you get to the last button in your sequence, you move your finger/thumb back to the start.
With the combo all on one button, you need to count, constantly, in order to ensure that the specific skills in the combo line up properly.

The reason this isn't an issue in PVP, is because PVP skills have been simplified to remove all of this nuance, so that you can focus on the battlefield, and react on the fly to your opponents and teammates actions, instead of executing a rote-learned and fixed rotation.

[Deceptus]

I'm still not convinced about MNK and/or DRG though.
You say "the issue is it's designed that way" but then, it IS designed that way. MNK is 100% based around it's combo system, with each discrete GCD having it's own positional, it's own unique effect, and two skills to manipulate your combo progression. Your whole focus is on what part of the combo you are in on any given GCD, and muscle memory is very important for it.

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.