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  1. #1
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogempire View Post
    Just a personal anecdote, but when I play Red Mage and Gunbreaker I have my melee/Gnashing Fang combo tied to shift 5-7 because those are the only only spots I have room to fit them without putting them at a super awkward keybind like ctrl 8-0. Having those combos tied to 1 button would make things a lot less annoying for me because I wouldn't miss the key combos on accident occasionally while dodging mechanics and it would free up more space for extra skills.

    Having those combos be 3 buttons doesn't make the job any harder, it just makes it more annoying to play comfortably for people like me who prefer to keep my main skills easily hittable but can't because certain jobs have too many main skills to bind.
    GNB already has a consolidated combo on one button, Continuation.
    Fact that people always overlook this just shows that consolidating a combo into one button does just reduce it to merely one button, and negates the fact that it's a combo.

    I don't want every job to end up like a healers Glare/Broil/Malefic spam.
    (4)

  2. #2
    Player
    Dogempire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,079
    Character
    Okami Amaterasuu
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    GNB already has a consolidated combo on one button, Continuation.
    Fact that people always overlook this just shows that consolidating a combo into one button does just reduce it to merely one button, and negates the fact that it's a combo.

    I don't want every job to end up like a healers Glare/Broil/Malefic spam.
    And yet every expansion we end up losing skills and getting some back because people want new expansion skills, but we're simply at the limit of how many skills we should have.

    Maybe if they could actually consolidate the amount of keybinds we have instead of outright deleting skills, we could finally have an expansion that actually builds on the job we played last expansion instead of one where half our skills magically disappear overnight.

    Or they could just delete the entire Gnashing fang combo to make room for some new Endwalker gimmick for the Gunbreaker job, which is probably what's going to actually happen if they don't consolidate anything.
    (1)

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  3. #3
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Dogempire View Post
    And yet every expansion we end up losing skills and getting some back because people want new expansion skills, but we're simply at the limit of how many skills we should have.

    Maybe if they could actually consolidate the amount of keybinds we have instead of outright deleting skills, we could finally have an expansion that actually builds on the job we played last expansion instead of one where half our skills magically disappear overnight.

    Or they could just delete the entire Gnashing fang combo to make room for some new Endwalker gimmick for the Gunbreaker job, which is probably what's going to actually happen if they don't consolidate anything.
    There's definitely room for button consolidation, but simply turning every combo into one button isn't the best way to do this. Many jobs have skills that are mutually exclusive, you can't use one while the other is available, or some skills simply become redundant in the presence of others.

    BLM: Combine Ley Lines and Between the Lines. Have B2 upgrade into Freeze and F2 upgrade into Flare.
    NIN: Combine Dream within a Dream and Assassinate.
    SAM: Combine Meditation and Shoha. Upgrade Shinten into Seigan when under Merciful Eyes.
    DRG: Combine Fang and Claw with Wheeling Thrust. Delete Piercing Talon.
    PLD: Combine Requiescat with Confiteor. Combine the effects of Intervention and Cover, or simply buff one and remove the other.
    GNB: Probably would make the Gnashing Fang combo here a 1 button combo, the same as Continuation. So that you simply alternate between the two just like MCH's burst phase.

    There, that's all of the worst offenders in terms of button bloat out of the way. The only other jobs with 'too many' buttons are SMN which already does all of this sort of thing with it's Bahamut and Phoenix skills, and BRD, but that already only has 2 combo skills and I'm not familiar enough with it's endgame rotation to know what else to realistically be axed.

    I definitely wouldn't combine the combos for the melee jobs into single buttons. Mainly because their combos is what their entire rotation is based around. You remove those and they're reduced to 3 button jobs.
    SAM and MNK both have skills that simply wouldn't work with this sort of consolidation, because they unlock the ability to use combo skills out of order.
    DRG has 2 very long combos, get rid of those and it has 2 spamming combo buttons and Jump.
    Lastly, NIN, has a heavy burst rotation. It already spends half of its time simply hitting the 1-2-3 combo waiting for mudras and Trick Attack to come off cooldown, and it only has 4 of those combo skills to consolidate anyway. Combining them wouldn't achieve much and would make it more boring.
    (1)
    Last edited by Seraphor; 02-19-2021 at 10:10 PM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Achantion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    12
    Character
    Simon Malebranche
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    There's definitely room for button consolidation, but simply turning every combo into one button isn't the best way to do this. Many jobs have skills that are mutually exclusive, you can't use one while the other is available, or some skills simply become redundant in the presence of others.
    That is the real issue, not button merging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    BLM: Combine Ley Lines and Between the Lines. Have B2 upgrade into Freeze and F2 upgrade into Flare.
    NIN: Combine Dream within a Dream and Assassinate.
    SAM: Combine Meditation and Shoha. Upgrade Shinten into Seigan when under Merciful Eyes.
    DRG: Combine Fang and Claw with Wheeling Thrust. Delete Piercing Talon.
    PLD: Combine Requiescat with Confiteor. Combine the effects of Intervention and Cover, or simply buff one and remove the other.
    GNB: Probably would make the Gnashing Fang combo here a 1 button combo, the same as Continuation. So that you simply alternate between the two just like MCH's burst phase.
    Most of these are perfect examples of what I'm aiming at. Make a button have a mechanic.

    Yet, these are generally all things you do in between your basic combo's. I would love to see the same mind set applied to more varied basic ability design. Make certain combo's reactive, require a pre-requisite, lower damage but faster GCD (and visa versa), etc.. Button consolidation wouldn't be an issue with more varied ability design.

    I'm going to stress again that button removal isn't the goal. For each button removed a new one should come in it's place, but, 1-2-3 combo's are just an artificial way to pad the number of buttons a job has access too.

    Sure some classes in their current design might need a tiny redesign, but as NIN's Shadow Fang has proven, there are easy cop-outs to achieve this.
    (1)
    Last edited by Achantion; 02-19-2021 at 10:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    There's definitely room for button consolidation, but simply turning every combo into one button isn't the best way to do this. Many jobs have skills that are mutually exclusive, you can't use one while the other is available, or some skills simply become redundant in the presence of others.

    BLM: Combine Ley Lines and Between the Lines. Have B2 upgrade into Freeze and F2 upgrade into Flare.
    NIN: Combine Dream within a Dream and Assassinate.
    SAM: Combine Meditation and Shoha. Upgrade Shinten into Seigan when under Merciful Eyes.
    DRG: Combine Fang and Claw with Wheeling Thrust. Delete Piercing Talon.
    PLD: Combine Requiescat with Confiteor. Combine the effects of Intervention and Cover, or simply buff one and remove the other.
    GNB: Probably would make the Gnashing Fang combo here a 1 button combo, the same as Continuation. So that you simply alternate between the two just like MCH's burst phase.
    SMN:
    - Combine Enkindle (Pet ability) and Enkindle (Demi Primal) - These two abilities can't be used at the same time.
    - Combine Dreadwyrm Trance with Summon Bahamut. Can't use Bahamut without using DT first. DT already turns into Phoenix after Bahamut anyway.
    WHM:
    - Trait that upgrades Cure 1 into Cure 2 and adjust MP accordingly (500-750 range)
    - Trait that upgrades Fluid Aura into Assize and change Assize name to Flood. FA is useless as it is, and low level CNJ / WHM mana regen sucks. Give FA an 8% mana gain on use.
    - Trait that upgrades Medica into Cure 3 and simply extend the range on Cure 3. Silly both exist. Or call it medica 3 for the eventual Cure 3 that is going to have to be made later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    Do you really want DRG to be 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2 with occasional Jumps?[/I]
    Dragoon is probably the worst example you can use against button bloat and they always have been. There is literally zero functional difference between 123-4 / 567-8 vs 1111 / 2222 other than the amount of buttons that requires it. One requires 8 slots and one requires 2.
    (2)
    Last edited by Deceptus; 02-19-2021 at 11:55 PM.