Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[Satarn]

While pressing 123 vs 111 might not make some huge difference in "complexity"(although it certainly does some), the main thing is how it affects "engagement" - which is what actually matters 100% of the time when it comes to game design. When people ask for things to be more complex, it's not really about some stupid bragging rights and ego of "playing a harder thing" - it's about the difficulty providing a challenge and thus more engagement. Sometimes things can in fact be more engaging without being considerably harder, just like some difficulty might occasionally not be engaging but only annoying.

You might not consciously realize that, but for your brain moving the finger slightly before pressing another button is a bit more stimulating than just pressing the same button over and over and it helps with engagement. We can already see this issue on a smaller scale in how plenty of people dislike the "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" buffs on many jobs and on a bigger scale with how many more people hate the new healer "rotations".

Now, there are absolutely games with consolidated combos which are actually more engaging than the FFXIV combination system. There are games which only allow for something like 8 or 10 skills on your hotbars at the time instead of the "piano rotations" of this game and somehow manage to make their combat systems feel more complex and fun.
However the difference is these games usually have way faster gcd speed(if any), more branching in their combos, more reactive class mechanics(proc based combos, generally procs being a game mechanic instead of "job identity"), more dynamic resource management, waaaay lower cooldowns(seriously, the fact that 30 seconds is considered a "low cd" in FFXIV is hilarious when you look at other games where 20 seconds is considered "long cd") and not nearly as scripted fights, possibly with some actual reactive dodging involved. Comparing the number of buttons in FFXIV to games with so vastly different gameplays isn't really fair at all.

A lot of people here seem to hope that with less hotbar space spent on combos, devs could add more complexity in new skills, but to that I have to ask - have you paid any attention at all for the last four years? The current game direction is definitely not suggesting anything close to that, in fact SE is rather hell-bent on removing any sort of difficulty from the jobs and streamlining anything remotely demanding. It's already started to a degree with transition from HW to SB, but for SHB it's practically the theme of the entire expansion and it's doubtful that it'll change anytime soon - especially with all the blind praise and new players the expac has brought just because the story was great.
Many of us just don't believe at all that devs would use the consolidation for anything interesting and for a good reason, so we want to at least keep any tiny bits we have left.

[Rilifane]

Don't worry, most high-end players take phase timings and kill times into account, and it's particularly important on paladin with how they're able to branch their combo and manipulate their GCD.

A lot of people in this thread are just kind of posturing and talking about things they don't actually have knowledge about.

For almost 9 pages almost everyone who was against this idea only wrote that pressing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 is so much more difficult and that removing that will make every class horribly dumbed down. And people responded that no, pressing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 is, in fact, not so much more difficult.
Leaving the option to assign them seperately is a nice idea but the chances are unlikely that SE will add more interesting skills.

Given that they would add more interesting skills, it would most likely be a choice between
1) keeping it as it is and some classes will have a few times thoughout a whole fight where they have to use their combo in an unusual order
2) having another interesting mechanic/ skill for the whole fight

I'd wager that if they consolidated combos and added another interesting skill/ mechanic, you'll have even more fun optimizing that for a whole fight. Skill pruning will happen but many would rather see skills pruned/ consolidated that add very little for 99% of the fight and make room for skills that do instead of keeping everything as it is and risk losing more interesting skills because the basic 1-2-3 can't be touched.
You brought up a good argument with phase transitions but it seems you have yet to understand the other side of the argument.

[Ultimatecalibur]

You might not consciously realize that, but for your brain moving the finger slightly before pressing another button is a bit more stimulating than just pressing the same button over and over and it helps with engagement. We can already see this issue on a smaller scale in how plenty of people dislike the "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" buffs on many jobs

Part of the problem is that most of the jobs that are complained about for their "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" burst buffs those burst use the same button that is already being hit quite regularly. There is a fair amount of difference in engagement between spamming Bloodletter/Fellcleave 5 times and casting Holy Spirit 5 times when you are already hitting Bloodletter/Fellcleave every 7th or so gcd.

and on a bigger scale with how many more people hate the new healer "rotations".

The healer dps spell spam is more the result of problems elsewhere. A button that was intended to be hit only on occasion is being spammed constantly due to disconnects between healer design and fight design.

[Satarn]

Part of the problem is that most of the jobs that are complained about for their "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" burst buffs those burst use the same button that is already being hit quite regularly. There is a fair amount of difference in engagement between spamming Bloodletter/Fellcleave 5 times and casting Holy Spirit 5 times when you are already hitting Bloodletter/Fellcleave every 7th or so gcd.

Erm, and that is an argument against my point... how? The combos are the bread and butter of all melee rotations so they're an even bigger part of the gcd contribution than the gauge spenders like BS or FC. Some jobs don't even have gcd spenders or other "solo gcds" to break up the combo monotony at all.

With the example of DRK, right now Bloodspiller button is pressed about 6 times per minute while each of the combo buttons is pressed a little over 6 times per minute. That means a consolidated "Souleater Combo" button would be pressed over three times as much as Bloodspiller is right now and with way shorter breaks in between. If somebody's already sick of mashing BS, they'd be far more sick of mashing this new "combo button".
Even in case of jobs with branching combos, most would still end up spamming quite a lot, just with one or two other gcd buttons to press(also 2-3 times in a row) every now and then for the buff/dot upkeep - which is not much unlike how WHM will occasionally press Dia or one of their afflatus GCDs or how SCH will use Biolysis and Ruin II.

The healer dps spell spam is more the result of problems elsewhere. A button that was intended to be hit only on occasion is being spammed constantly due to disconnects between healer design and fight design.

The intention doesn't matter in the slightest - all that's relevant is the actual result and its conclusion, which is that many people don't enjoy spending majority of the fight spamming one gcd button over and over.

[EtherRose]

I support the idea. While mostly everyone in this thread is against it because it "Dumbs Down" the game and makes it a one button spam they fail to realize that SE could have taken this route with combo actions and kept other actions/skills instead of getting rid of them. So while it takes 3 skills and condenses them into a 1 button combo skill it'll make more room for various other skills that SE could have kept on the Job/Class or add new ones.

[ForteNightshade]

I'd wager that if they consolidated combos and added another interesting skill/ mechanic, you'll have even more fun optimizing that for a whole fight. Skill pruning will happen but many would rather see skills pruned/ consolidated that add very little for 99% of the fight and make room for skills that do instead of keeping everything as it is and risk losing more interesting skills because the basic 1-2-3 can't be touched.
You brought up a good argument with phase transitions but it seems you have yet to understand the other side of the argument.

Based on...? Because the past two expansions have shown precisely the opposite. For ease of comparison, lets simplify both sides. People in favor of combo consolidation are essentially expecting/wanting a return to job complexity similar to Heavensward Dark Knight. Conversely, those of us on the opposing side have no belief whatsoever the devs will do anything of the sort and their big reveal will be more akin to "Inner Release Mastery" where now you spam five Inner Beasts! So creativity, OH EMM GEE!!

Jesting aside, I certainly can't speak for everyone but I'd be far more willing to embrace combo consolidation if SE actually went in the former direction, or even took a step further. How often do you see tanks wanting additional combos? Give Dragoon a third combo or have Vorpal Thrust weave into Full Thrust for a new effect. In other words, give us some meaningful engagement if we're going to lose the, admittedly, minute amount we have. A primarily complaint with Bard this expansion is despite having roughly the same rotation, the job feels completely gutted. Iron Jaws buff snapshotting and Foe's were ultimately something you didn't interact with often but enough to give the job a unique feel that no longer exists. That isn't to say combos are on the same level, but to highlight how small things can have a bigger impact.

Perhaps I'm too jaded with how simplified Shadowbringers made everything. I just do not believe we'll see much innovation with job design despite all this new hotbar space.

I support the idea. While mostly everyone in this thread is against it because it "Dumbs Down" the game and makes it a one button spam they fail to realize that SE could have taken this route with combo actions and kept other actions/skills instead of getting rid of them. So while it takes 3 skills and condenses them into a 1 button combo skill it'll make more room for various other skills that SE could have kept on the Job/Class or add new ones.

They could also, you know, remove the myriad of useless abilities that still remain. Repelling Shot, Piercing Talon, Fluid Aura, Seigan Fist stances, Shield Bash and etc. Some abilities were removed simply because they were "too hard," like Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot. Simply put, many skills pruned weren't necessarily due to space but to make the jobs more simplified. Therefore, they were always going to be targeted regardless of compressed combos. Meanwhile, we still have several abilities so useless, they don't even make it on most hotbars. In fact, Cure I may stand as the best example; being dubbed the "newbie trap" because of how inefficient it is. So we have plenty of skills they can drop without touching any of the ones we actually use.

[Reksanden]

I think it's fine - if it's an optional thing. I could see it being implemented more as an extension of macros rather than a game-wide change, actually.

One could argue that it dumbs down the game for them - and be correct. Another will argue that it simplifies things in a way that makes it easier for them/others who might have difficulties - and be correct. It just feels like the most positive thing to do would be to add it as a feature for folks who want to/need to use it... And communicate how it's meant to be used properly, while not pushing it as mandatory for everybody.

Easier said than done, of course, but it can be done.

[Katie_Kitty]

For some reason there are people who are REALLY deadset on pressing 1-2-3 and are vehemently against pressing 1-1-1.

3 button presses either way, but one has 3 dedicated buttons and one has only 1 dedicated button.

Maybe, JUST maybe if they actually did that, SE would have a reason to stop taking away abilities, repackaging them and giving them back to us at later levels.

Yep.. Can't help but laugh when people argue against this idea because "muh dumbing down" when they aren't even getting the most out of the jobs they play to begin with and mostly do not even step foot in anything more difficult than a normal raid. It's laughable at best and not convincing to me in the slightest.

PVP-style combo buttons should absolutely be an option. Forcing each individual step in every combo to be its own separate button serves no purpose, does not make gameplay any more complicated, in fact accomplishes nothing but button bloat. Adding these combo buttons into PVE content would free up all kinds of hotbar space and even allow them to add more skills and more depth to the current jobs if desired while maintaining the same level of accessibility.

1-2-3 is not difficulty. It is not complexity. It is needless button bloat when 1-1-1 would work just fine while also allowing you to replace the 2-3 with other skills.

[Deceptus]

A lot of people here seem to hope that with less hotbar space spent on combos, devs could add more complexity in new skills, but to that I have to ask - have you paid any attention at all for the last four years? The current game direction is definitely not suggesting anything close to that, in fact SE is rather hell-bent on removing any sort of difficulty from the jobs and streamlining anything remotely demanding. It's already started to a degree with transition from HW to SB, but for SHB it's practically the theme of the entire expansion and it's doubtful that it'll change anytime soon - especially with all the blind praise and new players the expac has brought just because the story was great.
Many of us just don't believe at all that devs would use the consolidation for anything interesting and for a good reason, so we want to at least keep any tiny bits we have left.

I have. I've been playing since 2.0 and I am relatively intelligent enough to get the reason that the devs do certain things whether I agree with them or not.

1) Dots. Every job used to have some sort of DoT. SE removed the majority of them because mobs / bosses were hitting the debuff slot limit.

2) Like it or not, button bloat is absolutely a thing. And it's even more of a consideration in FFXIV when you have to have the limited buttons to map to a controller. There are only so many LB RB combinations, and not all of those actions can be used for attacks.

Why do you think that SE routinely takes abilities away, combines them and gives them back to the player at a later level.

The easiest example of this is the healer ability Divine Seal from White Mages. Pre-Stormblood this was a WHM only spell, then given to all healers as Largesse as a role action, then taken away again and given back to WHM's as Temperance.

Temperance is nothing more than Divine Seal combined with Protect (10% damage reduction).

WoW has done the same thing reducing buttons. Again, like it or not, there can only be so much "complexity" until a job feels bloated. The old DRG opener was a meme for a reason.

[Payadopa]

The developers said that the PvP combo system was implemented in that content to allow players to focus on the strategies of PvP environments rather than on a rotation.

Which is funny since in almost all content brute force > strategy. Kind of a moot point, if you ask me. :/