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  1. #1
    Player
    Satarn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
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    522
    Character
    K'rheya Tia
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    While pressing 123 vs 111 might not make some huge difference in "complexity"(although it certainly does some), the main thing is how it affects "engagement" - which is what actually matters 100% of the time when it comes to game design. When people ask for things to be more complex, it's not really about some stupid bragging rights and ego of "playing a harder thing" - it's about the difficulty providing a challenge and thus more engagement. Sometimes things can in fact be more engaging without being considerably harder, just like some difficulty might occasionally not be engaging but only annoying.

    You might not consciously realize that, but for your brain moving the finger slightly before pressing another button is a bit more stimulating than just pressing the same button over and over and it helps with engagement. We can already see this issue on a smaller scale in how plenty of people dislike the "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" buffs on many jobs and on a bigger scale with how many more people hate the new healer "rotations".

    Now, there are absolutely games with consolidated combos which are actually more engaging than the FFXIV combination system. There are games which only allow for something like 8 or 10 skills on your hotbars at the time instead of the "piano rotations" of this game and somehow manage to make their combat systems feel more complex and fun.
    However the difference is these games usually have way faster gcd speed(if any), more branching in their combos, more reactive class mechanics(proc based combos, generally procs being a game mechanic instead of "job identity"), more dynamic resource management, waaaay lower cooldowns(seriously, the fact that 30 seconds is considered a "low cd" in FFXIV is hilarious when you look at other games where 20 seconds is considered "long cd") and not nearly as scripted fights, possibly with some actual reactive dodging involved. Comparing the number of buttons in FFXIV to games with so vastly different gameplays isn't really fair at all.

    A lot of people here seem to hope that with less hotbar space spent on combos, devs could add more complexity in new skills, but to that I have to ask - have you paid any attention at all for the last four years? The current game direction is definitely not suggesting anything close to that, in fact SE is rather hell-bent on removing any sort of difficulty from the jobs and streamlining anything remotely demanding. It's already started to a degree with transition from HW to SB, but for SHB it's practically the theme of the entire expansion and it's doubtful that it'll change anytime soon - especially with all the blind praise and new players the expac has brought just because the story was great.
    Many of us just don't believe at all that devs would use the consolidation for anything interesting and for a good reason, so we want to at least keep any tiny bits we have left.
    (10)

  2. #2
    Player
    Ultimatecalibur's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2,737
    Character
    Kakita Ucalibur
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 86
    Quote Originally Posted by Satarn View Post
    You might not consciously realize that, but for your brain moving the finger slightly before pressing another button is a bit more stimulating than just pressing the same button over and over and it helps with engagement. We can already see this issue on a smaller scale in how plenty of people dislike the "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" buffs on many jobs
    Part of the problem is that most of the jobs that are complained about for their "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" burst buffs those burst use the same button that is already being hit quite regularly. There is a fair amount of difference in engagement between spamming Bloodletter/Fellcleave 5 times and casting Holy Spirit 5 times when you are already hitting Bloodletter/Fellcleave every 7th or so gcd.
    and on a bigger scale with how many more people hate the new healer "rotations".
    The healer dps spell spam is more the result of problems elsewhere. A button that was intended to be hit only on occasion is being spammed constantly due to disconnects between healer design and fight design.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player
    Satarn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    522
    Character
    K'rheya Tia
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur View Post
    Part of the problem is that most of the jobs that are complained about for their "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" burst buffs those burst use the same button that is already being hit quite regularly. There is a fair amount of difference in engagement between spamming Bloodletter/Fellcleave 5 times and casting Holy Spirit 5 times when you are already hitting Bloodletter/Fellcleave every 7th or so gcd.
    Erm, and that is an argument against my point... how? The combos are the bread and butter of all melee rotations so they're an even bigger part of the gcd contribution than the gauge spenders like BS or FC. Some jobs don't even have gcd spenders or other "solo gcds" to break up the combo monotony at all.

    With the example of DRK, right now Bloodspiller button is pressed about 6 times per minute while each of the combo buttons is pressed a little over 6 times per minute. That means a consolidated "Souleater Combo" button would be pressed over three times as much as Bloodspiller is right now and with way shorter breaks in between. If somebody's already sick of mashing BS, they'd be far more sick of mashing this new "combo button".
    Even in case of jobs with branching combos, most would still end up spamming quite a lot, just with one or two other gcd buttons to press(also 2-3 times in a row) every now and then for the buff/dot upkeep - which is not much unlike how WHM will occasionally press Dia or one of their afflatus GCDs or how SCH will use Biolysis and Ruin II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur View Post
    The healer dps spell spam is more the result of problems elsewhere. A button that was intended to be hit only on occasion is being spammed constantly due to disconnects between healer design and fight design.
    The intention doesn't matter in the slightest - all that's relevant is the actual result and its conclusion, which is that many people don't enjoy spending majority of the fight spamming one gcd button over and over.
    (4)

  4. #4
    Player
    Ultimatecalibur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    2,737
    Character
    Kakita Ucalibur
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 86
    Quote Originally Posted by Satarn View Post
    Erm, and that is an argument against my point... how?
    It was actually an attempt to support your point and focus where the problem actually lies. Suddenly spamming the same button you are already pushing regularly is not very engaging unless there is something that makes it feel different.

    With the example of DRK, right now Bloodspiller button is pressed about 6 times per minute while each of the combo buttons is pressed a little over 6 times per minute. That means a consolidated "Souleater Combo" button would be pressed over three times as much as Bloodspiller is right now and with way shorter breaks in between. If somebody's already sick of mashing BS, they'd be far more sick of mashing this new "combo button".
    One of the biggest problems with DRK is that it only has 4 single target weaponskills. The 3 of the weaponskills are a single combo while the remaining weaponskill is both a gaugespender and spam button. If the only effect of combo compression was going from 1-2-3-1-2-3-4 to 1-1-1-1-1-1-2 that would be bad design.

    Good design would do something like adding Scourge back in as a 15 second non-interrupting DoT and an alternative combo ender that applies or extends a Haste buff (i.e. a combined Skill Speed+Spell Speed buff) in addition to combo compression. 1-1-1-2-1-1-3-4-1-1-3-2-1-1-1-4 is much more engaging than 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-4 even though it uses the exact same number of buttons.

    Even in case of jobs with branching combos, most would still end up spamming quite a lot, just with one or two other gcd buttons to press(also 2-3 times in a row) every now and then for the buff/dot upkeep - which is not much unlike how WHM will occasionally press Dia or one of their afflatus GCDs or how SCH will use Biolysis and Ruin II.
    Many games use single button progressive combos (often with branches) and they do not come off as boring mostly due to steps of the single button combo having visual differences. A fair amount of the complaints about Glare spam would likely quite down if it rotated through the visuals of Stone 3, Stone 4 and Glare.

    The intention doesn't matter in the slightest - all that's relevant is the actual result and its conclusion, which is that many people don't enjoy spending majority of the fight spamming one gcd button over and over.
    Actually it is fairly important, you don't actually fix a flawed design by focusing solely on the resulting effects. You compare the intended effects and the resulting effects and look for the causes of the effects you do not desire.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Satarn View Post
    A lot of people here seem to hope that with less hotbar space spent on combos, devs could add more complexity in new skills, but to that I have to ask - have you paid any attention at all for the last four years? The current game direction is definitely not suggesting anything close to that, in fact SE is rather hell-bent on removing any sort of difficulty from the jobs and streamlining anything remotely demanding. It's already started to a degree with transition from HW to SB, but for SHB it's practically the theme of the entire expansion and it's doubtful that it'll change anytime soon - especially with all the blind praise and new players the expac has brought just because the story was great.
    Many of us just don't believe at all that devs would use the consolidation for anything interesting and for a good reason, so we want to at least keep any tiny bits we have left.
    I have. I've been playing since 2.0 and I am relatively intelligent enough to get the reason that the devs do certain things whether I agree with them or not.

    1) Dots. Every job used to have some sort of DoT. SE removed the majority of them because mobs / bosses were hitting the debuff slot limit.

    2) Like it or not, button bloat is absolutely a thing. And it's even more of a consideration in FFXIV when you have to have the limited buttons to map to a controller. There are only so many LB RB combinations, and not all of those actions can be used for attacks.

    Why do you think that SE routinely takes abilities away, combines them and gives them back to the player at a later level.

    The easiest example of this is the healer ability Divine Seal from White Mages. Pre-Stormblood this was a WHM only spell, then given to all healers as Largesse as a role action, then taken away again and given back to WHM's as Temperance.

    Temperance is nothing more than Divine Seal combined with Protect (10% damage reduction).

    WoW has done the same thing reducing buttons. Again, like it or not, there can only be so much "complexity" until a job feels bloated. The old DRG opener was a meme for a reason.
    (3)
    Last edited by Deceptus; 01-30-2021 at 11:24 PM.
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]