Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[Ultimatecalibur]

DNC: first two stages of their combos can be condensed. If the code allows for it, 3rd stage hits could be condensed as well.

I agree with what you have said but feel DNC is a job that that won't work for as Cascade/Fountain/Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall convert into Emboite/Entrechat/Jete/Pirouette during Standard/Technical Step. They can't be compressed into 2 buttons because they are already 2 mutually exclusive sets of 4 buttons compressed into 4 buttons.

[HyoMinPark]

I agree with what you have said but feel DNC is a job that that won't work for as Cascade/Fountain/Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall convert into Emboite/Entrechat/Jete/Pirouette during Standard/Technical Step. They can't be compressed into 2 buttons because they are already 2 mutually exclusive sets of 4 buttons compressed into 4 buttons.

DNC is also not a job that has rigidity in terms of its rotation; it is priority based. Due to its RNG, you don’t just do 1>2>1>2>ad nauseam all the time. There are times where you use procs first, use them as they proc (they don’t break your combo), and others where you have to use a Fountainfall proc and then Fountain afterwards so as to not drop your combo entirely (usually happens during Flourish windows). Condensing Cascade/Reverse Cascade and Fountain/Fountainfall would interfere with that kind of gameplay. Including what you said above with the steps.

This is all aside from the fact that DNC has very few buttons to begin with, so what need is there to prune anyways.

[Deceptus]

The jobs that could get away with having them consolidated into one button are DRK, GNB, and MCH (one could argue PLD WAR and NIN could also get away with it).

Rotations have always and probably will always be a thing in an RPG since there most likely will be an optimal skill order to use to do the most damage its just that a lot won't tell you the exact rotation (though 14 doesn't really tell you outright what the rotation is so eh)

It's mostly the melee jobs who can get away with a condensed combo system. Most of their stuff doesn't change. At all.

DRG can do it as well as Wheeling Thrust / Fang and claw aren't random anymore

True > Vorpal > Full Thrust > Fang and Claw

True > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust > Wheeling Thrust

All of the melee AoE's can easily be made into combos as well.

Tanks are just a 1-2 comb on each one.

DRG is a 3 step combo that doesn't change.

SAM is a 2 step that changes a bit but can easily be made into a 3 step combo. (Fuga > Mangetsu > Oka gives Getsu then Ka)

Ninja is a 2 step aoe combo that doesn't change.

MNK is now a 3 step aoe combo that doesn't change.

The point is, all of these jobs could easily gain 4+ free slots that could give them back old abilities or better new abilities.

At the end of the day, Job button culling is going to happen. Square makes it evidently clear not just in practice, but Yoshi-P himself has said passing quotes on the matter that they desire every job to be within a certain range of buttons. So the options are to let them condense rotations to hopefully avoid them touching actually interesting parts of our kit rather than the utterly mindless, mechanical, every player will have forged into muscle memory and never have to pay attention to part of their toolkit, or we keep combos uncondensed and it's guaranteed OGCDs and actually interesting parts of our toolkits will be getting cut.

Pick your poison. I'd rather they get rid of pointless bloat so that way there's a chance we don't experience a SHB 2.0 with job gutting.

Basically This^

[Voltyblast]

I wish, we're getting plenty of new combos, and not enough space in the skill bar. Especially this expansion they went and made aoe combos for all classes (which is nice for some, like the monk new combo), so having some skills condensed would very well save some space.

Or don't and hope you can add the next 5-6 skills in the next expansion, hoping they remove some older ones.

[ForteNightshade]

No, not really, but i hope for it. And I still stick with, rather have 2-3 more combos that ppl might not use then remove whats there. Maybe a one button combo is enough "dumbed down" so we can at least have more of them...

In the end they gonna move more skills around and cut some so we end up having like 2 skills till lv 30 and then 4 till 50 and then 1-2 at max more per expansion, which would suck whenever we get synched down..

IF ppl would not resist that much against the combo buttons id see a better chance for less dull gameplay then with "we cut off your combo, add some new trait, add another skills and maybe a ogc that triggers from it"


Also i wanna point out, the number of skills doesnt equal the amounts of hotbars one needs. If youre fine with switching you hotbars around all the time, fine, but i got several skills i need to place more then once to manage using em and im sure im not the only one...

See, I don't like this argument because it puts all on the onus on the playerbase and not the dev team. People are resistant to combo consolidation because the dev team hasn't been especially innovative, thus we're concerned jobs like Dragoon will suddenly have massive free hotbar space that never gets used. I also don't particularly find pressing an oGCD every 90-120s any more interesting than 1-2-3 vs 1-1-1. The onus needs to be on SE to sell their change. Like I said, I'm open to reducing the combos to a single button if I've given something else to engage with.

As for needing to place the same ability on your hotbar more than once. That's what macros are for. I don't think reducing Dragoon down to two hotbars worth of skills just so you can fit four Dragon Sight macros is a good use of said space.

[Ultimatecalibur]

People are resistant to combo consolidation because the dev team hasn't been especially innovative, thus we're concerned jobs like Dragoon will suddenly have massive free hotbar space that never gets used.

A fair amount of resistance is the result of confusing method (1 button progressive combos) with objective (getting PvP buttons down to about 16). They hear 1 button combos and their minds immediately go to the gutted rotations of PvP without realizing that the culled actions rather than the 1 button combos are why the PvP kits feel gutted compared to the PvE kits.

The onus needs to be on SE to sell their change. Like I said, I'm open to reducing the combos to a single button if I've given something else to engage with.

Which is what I think a lot of the supporters are actually hoping for. For example, my hoped changes for the 6.0 Paladin with combo compression would be something like this:

• Rage of Halone/Royal Authority combo compressed down to 1 button from 3 (Goring Blade stays as its own button and an alternative finisher for the combo)
• Shield Lob getting a 3 stage ranged combo that generates Sword Oath stacks
• Total Eclipse and Prominence turned to a 1 button combo that also generates Sword Oath
• An AoE Sword Oath weaponskill that inflicts a 12s version of the Goring Blade DoT
• A ranged Sword Oath weaponskill that would extend the Goring Blade DoT
• Another independent action that can be on or off the gcd

In effect the Paladin would get 5 new actions without losing any existing actions. This would all be possible by compressing 6 buttons down to 3 and turning an existing button into a 3 part combo.

[Raikai]

Ayy, pale skin Xaela partners!



At the end of the day, Job button culling is going to happen. Square makes it evidently clear not just in practice, but Yoshi-P himself has said passing quotes on the matter that they desire every job to be within a certain range of buttons. So the options are to let them condense rotations to hopefully avoid them touching actually interesting parts of our kit rather than the utterly mindless, mechanical, every player will have forged into muscle memory and never have to pay attention to part of their toolkit, or we keep combos uncondensed and it's guaranteed OGCDs and actually interesting parts of our toolkits will be getting cut.

Exactly. The nature of the MMO structure that XIV follow, the same of WoW, practically requires some kind of rework at some point, because else, the players would end with either an unmanageable amount of abilities.

I don't even think the PVP combo style is watered down. Honestly it has the same amount of engagement, the difference is that it doesn't spread across your keyboard. Plus, thinking on the other side, the pvp combo style would vacate space for a more interesting type of complexity, which is space for new mechanics without having to rework old ones.

[spf1200]

Oh boy OP you hit the hornets nest. Apparently many people think that hitting 1,2,3 is super complex and deep and get annoyed the rest us us point out that it isn't any different than 1,1,1

[spf1200]

So after reading through this thread I think some of you that are against the idea are confused a bit. We are not asking for any skills to get removed and you would still use Ogcd skill between combo skills. We do not want over to go down to the number of skills pvp has. Same number of skills just less button bloat

[Goji1639]

See, I don't like this argument because it puts all on the onus on the playerbase and not the dev team. People are resistant to combo consolidation because the dev team hasn't been especially innovative, thus we're concerned jobs like Dragoon will suddenly have massive free hotbar space that never gets used. I also don't particularly find pressing an oGCD every 90-120s any more interesting than 1-2-3 vs 1-1-1. The onus needs to be on SE to sell their change. Like I said, I'm open to reducing the combos to a single button if I've given something else to engage with.

As for needing to place the same ability on your hotbar more than once. That's what macros are for. I don't think reducing Dragoon down to two hotbars worth of skills just so you can fit four Dragon Sight macros is a good use of said space.

This I don't completely understand. You say yourself than 1-2-3 is really no more engaging or deep than 1-1-1, so what's the value in taking up that extra hotbar space? It would be nice if SE used that extra space to flesh classes out more, but even if they didn't we're not actually losing anything by consolidating these simple combos.

I play on m&kb, use a programmable mouse and even I would appreciate freeing up some of my most efficient binds. It annoys me that they're wasted on something that could/should be consolidated.