Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[Anvaire]

Yeah, they'd definitely use that opportunity to add a ton of unique, interesting new skills, just like they did with all that newly opened hotbar space in 5.0 MCH- oh wait.

TBF I don't think you can judge Job design by 5.0. They changed design direction in 5.0 and I personally think the reason jobs seem easier after rework as they have adjusted them with future additions to the job in mind. I think though that compressing multiple actions to one button is only really good when You have kit that precludes the use of other things, an example would be summoner. Where you cannot use Ankh Morn, Revelation or Enkindle depending on what phase you are in, therefore it makes sense to compress the buttons into 1. I think for a base combo, as others have said, having them compressed into a base button instills a rigid play style that does not allow you to bend the rotation to the fight. For the most part this is fine, but in Savage, Ultimates and extremes too much rigidity will literally make an optimum play of these classes difficult and clunky if not impossible to do without loosing a lot of combos / GCD. That said, there are ways they could do this in part by compressing the combo finisher into one button as most combos start with the same initial, then have a branching second and a finisher dependant on the second. the finisher could easily be the same button proc'd by whichever second combo skill was used. That would save space, but also keep the combos separate, however it also makes it incredibly difficult to break the combo, so the skill floor of the job would be lowered. (Which isnt necessarily a bad thing)

[ForteNightshade]

I can only repeat, id rather have 2-3 more combos, maybe with more ogc moves weaved into them

Based on how job design has reduced complexity and simplified nearly every job from Stormblood onward. Do you actually believe that will happen? As HyoMinPark said, they removed buff management like Straight Shot and Heavy Thrust because casual players weren't maintaining them. What makes you think they'll go from dumbing everything down for the most casual of players to the precise opposite, where now we're expected to have four combos and several additional oGCDs. Keep in mind, they have never added more than five new traits, weaponskills and/or abilities. So your expectations are literally them changing their entire direction. Don't get me wrong, I would love more branched and varied combos like say, Vorpal Thrust into Full Thrust has a new effect. I'd also have to be extremely optimistic to expect them to ever do something as nuanced.

The far likelier probability is Dragoon's new hotbars look similar to the Range: a barren wasteland.

[lolicon09]

i cant fit all my actions on Paladin luckily its only shield bash
and i have to put LB in a seperate hotbar for GNB and my lightning shot is in a semi awkward spots which i cant fix without using 3 hotbars

i play controller and id love to have the OPTION to save a couple spots

I also play with a controller and no Job uses more than 3 cross-hotbars (some just require 2)

Personally, i use cross-hotbar 1 and 2 for Jobs actions, and 3 only for Role actions.

[MsQi]

>Implying hitting 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1...

As I said, there are at most two jobs that use a straight 3 button combo.

No matter what the rotations tend to be self centered. Most of the conditions that determine what button is to be pressed are internal to the player character. Combat should be more reactive to the opponent. Rotations shouldn't really be a thing in RPGs. It should be based on the needs of combat. It's all regressed in recent years and today's designers are kind of short sighted.

[Awha]

I don't want them to be satisfied enough with combos to be able to consolidate them into one button. I'd rather we move in a direction that would make such a function impossible. IE: rethink combos and make them more engaging.

Thing is as it stands moving away from the core gameplay style by rethinking the core function of combos runs the risk of alienating the existing play base that may enjoy the current style of play. While adding a PvP style toggle just adds an extra element of enhance to existing players.

Sure in an ideal world I would love for more complex combos, I would prefer is healers had more involved DPS tool kits, but after all these years the chances of SE moving away from their current design philosophy seems unlikely. I wish they would stop removing skills from jobs, I wish they would give jobs more ogcds to use, I wish more depth was added to each class especially the two roles I play most tank and healer. That said, having a pvp toggle for those players that prefer a more streamlined version by all means go for it. I rather they go that way of reducing so called button bloat as an option, instead of cutting skills and function from jobs.

[BelegErkhten]

Having a 3 button combo in 1 button is far superior than the pointless bloat we have in pve it's night and day difference.

I have no issues on kb or controller but it's just common sense that its far superior design when you're never gonna break combo anyway

You clearly don't play enough PVP or PVE to understand why the two modes are sperate

PVP is fast paced, players can die in seconds, most buffs in this mode last for like 6 seconds max and your enemies are unpredictable, meanwhile PVE is slow and some boss fights can last upwards of 12 minutes, buffs can last anywhere between 10 to 30 seconds, but everything is known to the players, Titan is always gonna use Magnitude after he runs your Off-Tank over with his go-kart. The only thing these modes share is EXP and Job stones, because they play nothing alike.

PVP Combos are short and do not have any kind of branching paths, Literally every Melee other than DRK and GNB has some kind of Fork that changes a hit or two of the combo in PVE, this simply does not work with PVP combos as they are right now, and reworking them to handle this is a waste of dev resources to fix an issue that is not a problem. As you yourself stated, only a terrible player (like myself) breaks combo in the first place so adding PVP combos to PVE does not actually solve any problems, its already too easy to get carried in this game, if you can't press 1, 2, 3 consistently consider just getting good instead.


TL;DR This topic is not fit for discussion as it doesn't actually understand PVP in the first place.

[Kuroka]

Based on how job design has reduced complexity and simplified nearly every job from Stormblood onward. Do you actually believe that will happen?

No, not really, but i hope for it. And I still stick with, rather have 2-3 more combos that ppl might not use then remove whats there. Maybe a one button combo is enough "dumbed down" so we can at least have more of them...

In the end they gonna move more skills around and cut some so we end up having like 2 skills till lv 30 and then 4 till 50 and then 1-2 at max more per expansion, which would suck whenever we get synched down..

IF ppl would not resist that much against the combo buttons id see a better chance for less dull gameplay then with "we cut off your combo, add some new trait, add another skills and maybe a ogc that triggers from it"


Also i wanna point out, the number of skills doesnt equal the amounts of hotbars one needs. If youre fine with switching you hotbars around all the time, fine, but i got several skills i need to place more then once to manage using em and im sure im not the only one...

[Rymi64]

As I said, there are at most two jobs that use a straight 3 button combo.

No matter what the rotations tend to be self centered. Most of the conditions that determine what button is to be pressed are internal to the player character. Combat should be more reactive to the opponent. Rotations shouldn't really be a thing in RPGs. It should be based on the needs of combat. It's all regressed in recent years and today's designers are kind of short sighted.

The jobs that could get away with having them consolidated into one button are DRK, GNB, and MCH (one could argue PLD WAR and NIN could also get away with it).

Rotations have always and probably will always be a thing in an RPG since there most likely will be an optimal skill order to use to do the most damage its just that a lot won't tell you the exact rotation (though 14 doesn't really tell you outright what the rotation is so eh)

[Derio]

This made sense in the past with pvp. But since pvp buttons got reduced the combo structure is kind of meh. I actually hate the combo button in pvp. But i do think people should have options.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

(also i gotta say Daeriion, I always confuse you with myself on first sight as our faces look so alike XD)

Ayy, pale skin Xaela partners!

As I said, there are at most two jobs that use a straight 3 button combo.

No matter what the rotations tend to be self centered. Most of the conditions that determine what button is to be pressed are internal to the player character. Combat should be more reactive to the opponent. Rotations shouldn't really be a thing in RPGs. It should be based on the needs of combat. It's all regressed in recent years and today's designers are kind of short sighted.

Simple.

make combo chain buttons for each combo. for example, SAM currently uses 6 buttons for its current GCD rotation buttons:
-hakazae
-Jinpu
-Shifu
-gekko
-Kasha
-yukikaze

There are 3rd party add-ons out there I've seen videos of that condense all three combos into just 3 buttons: gekko combo, Kasha combo, Yukikaze combo. bam, 3 buttons of pointless bloat saved.

it'd even work with combos that share the 2nd button input, like WAR/PLD:

Goring Blade combo & Royal Authority combo. Both combos start on fast blade, then both buttons dynamically update to Riot blade, then after pushing riot blade, you just select the combo ender you want. 4 buttons (Goring, RA, RB, FB) condesned to 2 (Goring & RA combos)

You could do the following for these jobs:

WAR: -SE/SP combos, 4 buttons down to 2.
PLD: Ditto
GNB: Gnashing Fang combo condensed to 1 button, Solid Barrely combo condensed to 1 button. 6 buttons down to 2.
DRK: SE combo, 3 buttons down to 1.
SAM: Explained above.
DRG: Full thrust/Chaos thrust combos. Wheeling Thrust/fang & Claw condensed to 1 button since they're mutually exclusive.
NIN: Armor Crush/Aeolian edge combo. DwD & Assassinate paired together due to mutual exclsuivity.
MCH: clean shot combo. Hypercharge & heat Blast could theoretically be paired together due to mutual exclusivity.
DNC: first two stages of their combos can be condensed. If the code allows for it, 3rd stage hits could be condensed as well.
BLM: leylines -> between the lines due to mutual exclusivity. Fire IV <-> Blizzard IV due to mutual exclusivity due to astral/umbral stances.
SMN: Dreadwrym trance, Deathflare, Summon bahamut, Enkindle bahamut, Phoenix Trance and Endkindle phoenix could literally all be 1 button if you want to go extreme due tevery single skill being mutually exclusive from each other and requiring the skill before it in the chain to be used to unlock it.

At the end of the day, Job button culling is going to happen. Square makes it evidently clear not just in practice, but Yoshi-P himself has said passing quotes on the matter that they desire every job to be within a certain range of buttons. So the options are to let them condense rotations to hopefully avoid them touching actually interesting parts of our kit rather than the utterly mindless, mechanical, every player will have forged into muscle memory and never have to pay attention to part of their toolkit, or we keep combos uncondensed and it's guaranteed OGCDs and actually interesting parts of our toolkits will be getting cut.

Pick your poison. I'd rather they get rid of pointless bloat so that way there's a chance we don't experience a SHB 2.0 with job gutting.