Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[MsQi]

>Implying hitting 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1...

As I said, there are at most two jobs that use a straight 3 button combo.

No matter what the rotations tend to be self centered. Most of the conditions that determine what button is to be pressed are internal to the player character. Combat should be more reactive to the opponent. Rotations shouldn't really be a thing in RPGs. It should be based on the needs of combat. It's all regressed in recent years and today's designers are kind of short sighted.

[Rymi64]

As I said, there are at most two jobs that use a straight 3 button combo.

No matter what the rotations tend to be self centered. Most of the conditions that determine what button is to be pressed are internal to the player character. Combat should be more reactive to the opponent. Rotations shouldn't really be a thing in RPGs. It should be based on the needs of combat. It's all regressed in recent years and today's designers are kind of short sighted.

The jobs that could get away with having them consolidated into one button are DRK, GNB, and MCH (one could argue PLD WAR and NIN could also get away with it).

Rotations have always and probably will always be a thing in an RPG since there most likely will be an optimal skill order to use to do the most damage its just that a lot won't tell you the exact rotation (though 14 doesn't really tell you outright what the rotation is so eh)

[Deceptus]

The jobs that could get away with having them consolidated into one button are DRK, GNB, and MCH (one could argue PLD WAR and NIN could also get away with it).

Rotations have always and probably will always be a thing in an RPG since there most likely will be an optimal skill order to use to do the most damage its just that a lot won't tell you the exact rotation (though 14 doesn't really tell you outright what the rotation is so eh)

It's mostly the melee jobs who can get away with a condensed combo system. Most of their stuff doesn't change. At all.

DRG can do it as well as Wheeling Thrust / Fang and claw aren't random anymore

True > Vorpal > Full Thrust > Fang and Claw

True > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust > Wheeling Thrust

All of the melee AoE's can easily be made into combos as well.

Tanks are just a 1-2 comb on each one.

DRG is a 3 step combo that doesn't change.

SAM is a 2 step that changes a bit but can easily be made into a 3 step combo. (Fuga > Mangetsu > Oka gives Getsu then Ka)

Ninja is a 2 step aoe combo that doesn't change.

MNK is now a 3 step aoe combo that doesn't change.

The point is, all of these jobs could easily gain 4+ free slots that could give them back old abilities or better new abilities.

At the end of the day, Job button culling is going to happen. Square makes it evidently clear not just in practice, but Yoshi-P himself has said passing quotes on the matter that they desire every job to be within a certain range of buttons. So the options are to let them condense rotations to hopefully avoid them touching actually interesting parts of our kit rather than the utterly mindless, mechanical, every player will have forged into muscle memory and never have to pay attention to part of their toolkit, or we keep combos uncondensed and it's guaranteed OGCDs and actually interesting parts of our toolkits will be getting cut.

Pick your poison. I'd rather they get rid of pointless bloat so that way there's a chance we don't experience a SHB 2.0 with job gutting.

Basically This^

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

(also i gotta say Daeriion, I always confuse you with myself on first sight as our faces look so alike XD)

Ayy, pale skin Xaela partners!

As I said, there are at most two jobs that use a straight 3 button combo.

No matter what the rotations tend to be self centered. Most of the conditions that determine what button is to be pressed are internal to the player character. Combat should be more reactive to the opponent. Rotations shouldn't really be a thing in RPGs. It should be based on the needs of combat. It's all regressed in recent years and today's designers are kind of short sighted.

Simple.

make combo chain buttons for each combo. for example, SAM currently uses 6 buttons for its current GCD rotation buttons:
-hakazae
-Jinpu
-Shifu
-gekko
-Kasha
-yukikaze

There are 3rd party add-ons out there I've seen videos of that condense all three combos into just 3 buttons: gekko combo, Kasha combo, Yukikaze combo. bam, 3 buttons of pointless bloat saved.

it'd even work with combos that share the 2nd button input, like WAR/PLD:

Goring Blade combo & Royal Authority combo. Both combos start on fast blade, then both buttons dynamically update to Riot blade, then after pushing riot blade, you just select the combo ender you want. 4 buttons (Goring, RA, RB, FB) condesned to 2 (Goring & RA combos)

You could do the following for these jobs:

WAR: -SE/SP combos, 4 buttons down to 2.
PLD: Ditto
GNB: Gnashing Fang combo condensed to 1 button, Solid Barrely combo condensed to 1 button. 6 buttons down to 2.
DRK: SE combo, 3 buttons down to 1.
SAM: Explained above.
DRG: Full thrust/Chaos thrust combos. Wheeling Thrust/fang & Claw condensed to 1 button since they're mutually exclusive.
NIN: Armor Crush/Aeolian edge combo. DwD & Assassinate paired together due to mutual exclsuivity.
MCH: clean shot combo. Hypercharge & heat Blast could theoretically be paired together due to mutual exclusivity.
DNC: first two stages of their combos can be condensed. If the code allows for it, 3rd stage hits could be condensed as well.
BLM: leylines -> between the lines due to mutual exclusivity. Fire IV <-> Blizzard IV due to mutual exclusivity due to astral/umbral stances.
SMN: Dreadwrym trance, Deathflare, Summon bahamut, Enkindle bahamut, Phoenix Trance and Endkindle phoenix could literally all be 1 button if you want to go extreme due tevery single skill being mutually exclusive from each other and requiring the skill before it in the chain to be used to unlock it.

At the end of the day, Job button culling is going to happen. Square makes it evidently clear not just in practice, but Yoshi-P himself has said passing quotes on the matter that they desire every job to be within a certain range of buttons. So the options are to let them condense rotations to hopefully avoid them touching actually interesting parts of our kit rather than the utterly mindless, mechanical, every player will have forged into muscle memory and never have to pay attention to part of their toolkit, or we keep combos uncondensed and it's guaranteed OGCDs and actually interesting parts of our toolkits will be getting cut.

Pick your poison. I'd rather they get rid of pointless bloat so that way there's a chance we don't experience a SHB 2.0 with job gutting.

[Ultimatecalibur]

DNC: first two stages of their combos can be condensed. If the code allows for it, 3rd stage hits could be condensed as well.

I agree with what you have said but feel DNC is a job that that won't work for as Cascade/Fountain/Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall convert into Emboite/Entrechat/Jete/Pirouette during Standard/Technical Step. They can't be compressed into 2 buttons because they are already 2 mutually exclusive sets of 4 buttons compressed into 4 buttons.

[Raikai]

Ayy, pale skin Xaela partners!



At the end of the day, Job button culling is going to happen. Square makes it evidently clear not just in practice, but Yoshi-P himself has said passing quotes on the matter that they desire every job to be within a certain range of buttons. So the options are to let them condense rotations to hopefully avoid them touching actually interesting parts of our kit rather than the utterly mindless, mechanical, every player will have forged into muscle memory and never have to pay attention to part of their toolkit, or we keep combos uncondensed and it's guaranteed OGCDs and actually interesting parts of our toolkits will be getting cut.

Exactly. The nature of the MMO structure that XIV follow, the same of WoW, practically requires some kind of rework at some point, because else, the players would end with either an unmanageable amount of abilities.

I don't even think the PVP combo style is watered down. Honestly it has the same amount of engagement, the difference is that it doesn't spread across your keyboard. Plus, thinking on the other side, the pvp combo style would vacate space for a more interesting type of complexity, which is space for new mechanics without having to rework old ones.

[MsQi]

Ayy, pale skin Xaela partners!



Simple.

make combo chain buttons for each combo. for example, SAM currently uses 6 buttons for its current GCD rotation buttons:
-hakazae
-Jinpu
-Shifu
-gekko
-Kasha
-yukikaze

There are 3rd party add-ons out there I've seen videos of that condense all three combos into just 3 buttons: gekko combo, Kasha combo, Yukikaze combo. bam, 3 buttons of pointless bloat saved.

Meikyo Shisui

[Jirah]

Ayy, pale skin Xaela partners!



Simple.

make combo chain buttons for each combo. for example, SAM currently uses 6 buttons for its current GCD rotation buttons:
-hakazae
-Jinpu
-Shifu
-gekko
-Kasha
-yukikaze

There are 3rd party add-ons out there I've seen videos of that condense all three combos into just 3 buttons: gekko combo, Kasha combo, Yukikaze combo. bam, 3 buttons of pointless bloat saved.

sounds fine but how would Meikyo Shisui work?

[GrizzlyTank]

STOP TRYING TO MAKE FFXIV SO DUMBED DOWN ITS A ONE BUTTON GAME!

Not being a button fetishist is not the same as asking the game to be dumbed down.

This game is incredibly simple because almost every single job is stuck with a fixed rotation you can hardly deviate from, and even those that do have rng like dancer still end up with a 1,2,maybe 3, maybe 4,1,. .. rotation. Having one skill smeared over three buttons is not complex it is bloat that pushes the difficulty of the game to the player having to fight the interface and control system moreso than the actual game.

Monk is pretty much the only fixed rotation job that is actually complex due to having to juggle between buffs, max damage attacks and maintain positioning, and even if a lazy player were to just fill his entire bar such as the skills loops perfectly he would still have to maintain the positionals.

This game would gain a lot by not restricting themselves to almost only fixed rotations for most roles. More charger/spender or proc based rotations like Red mage would be welcome.