Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[Seraphor]

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

Despite the fact that Demolish and Twin Snakes have different durations, what about Leaden Fist?
And again, Perfect Balance and Form Shift. What are we doing with those? Just get rid of them? Do you understand why they exist?
Monk can break it's combo system. For the opener, you could go Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Snap Punch > Demolish > Dragon Kick > Bootshine. How would you manage that with consolidated combos?

And even so, what I'm reading is "if you simplify the jobs so that you can consolidate the skills, then you can consolidate the skills." Well then they're not currently simple enough to consolidate are they? And you are therefore simplifying the jobs in order to consolidate them in one place and add in more complexity elsewhere.
This isn't solving any issues, it's just moving the goalposts, and if you do this in order to add more skills in elsewhere, what would those skills do that would make it so much more interesting? And I'd like examples, not just "it doesn't matter, anything could be interesting, just some kind of mechanics." because those skills could also be boring. For over 2 years, until the recent rework Monk received in the last major patch, it had two OGCD's that were essentially useless. So those non-combo skills didn't add anything to the job at all.
The fact that 6 buttons were used on this combo system didn't hold back the job design in any way, it still had room for additional skills to increase the jobs complexity, but they didn't do that.

Monk is all about it's combos. This all sounds like "I don't like Monk, change it for me" without considering if the current iteration of Monk appeals to Monk mains or other people generally as it is.


I've already given concession to Samurai. In fact I've even come around to thinking it would be a good idea, seeing as in my experience with SAM I haven't yet mastered using Third Eye properly due to it not being on my main xhotbar.
However, consolidating SAM's combos would probably require a little simplification:
Meikyo Shisui would have to be changed, in order to immediately progress each combo button to it's last step, and hold them there.
The effects of Jinpu and Shifu would likely have to be homogenised into one buff, so that landing on the 2nd step of any combo would apply it. Maybe even give it 2 stacks so you still have to complete 2 combos to get the full effect. this wouldn't be too much of a detrimental change to it as the rotation is already all about steadily building up power.

[Ultimatecalibur]

And again, Perfect Balance and Form Shift. What are we doing with those? Just get rid of them? Do you understand why they exist?

Perfect Balance was created as a quick generation/regeneration button for Greased Lightning in ARR. If you really want to keep the burst function it has now, it could easily be replace with a more engaging burst (i.e. Blitzes) as has been suggested by multiple posters is the Dps Forums.

Form shift was added to allow Monks to start combat/phases with a Formed Twin Snakes/Dragon Kick rather than a formless Bootshine. They could easily revert Form Shift back to its original Form cycling function which would allow Monks to cycle through the actions on their 2 combo buttons.

[TurtlesAWD]

Combo consolidation in some form or another would be good imo, more space for situational or utility skills would let jobs shine in the ways they're unique, both in terms of how they play and what unique bonuses they bring to a party. Total number of buttons feels like it's close to the right spot right now, but assuming they'd be adding new ones, well... combos take a decent amount of space right now. If those opened up skill slots added more unique situational buffs that changed which of your GCD skills you wanted to use at specific times I don't think you'd lose complexity overall.

This is a bad example but let's say they consolidated combos and introduced 30 second cooldown skills that applied vulnerability to specific damage types like what SB had - so maybe one class applies periodic vuln to slashing and one class applies periodic vuln to blunt, neither with 100% duration on the boss possible. So as a monk you'd want to use a punch combo during blunt and a karate chop combo during slashing, or something along those lines. Also don't ask me how that would work for like, samurai. Hit 'em with the hilt during blunt I guess.

There's probably a lot of reasons to not make something like that debuff based, but I hope it illustrates what I'm generally getting at, periodically available skills that modify what we'd want to optimally use for the next 6-10 skills. Or hey, maybe more defensive or utility cooldowns too - if players get a wider variety of skills, bosses can use a wider variety of mechanics - it's not like every fight is against a punching bag.

[Jirah]

for this to be perfectly implemented most jobs will need to be retooled for such a drastic change PVP works because they arent the same as PVE and were intended to be swifter, and id rather keep most of the jobs incarnations ....


most

[MsQi]

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

Monk is designed to be able to switch between single and multi target mid cycle.

[Jirah]

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

how the hell would formless fist work since most of those skills are trapped behind other skills. it would not work for monk without dumming the job down, its aoe maybe but still formless fist exists so

[Ultimatecalibur]

how the hell would formless fist work since most of those skills are trapped behind other skills. it would not work for monk without dumming the job down, its aoe maybe but still formless fist exists so

Perfect Balance only exists right now as a burst phase and could do with a more engaging replacement and Form Shift could revert back to cycling through the various forms. Neither source of "Formless Fist" is a serious barrier to compressing the Monk's weaponskills.

[Jirah]

Perfect Balance only exists right now as a burst phase and could do with a more engaging replacement and Form Shift could revert back to cycling through the various forms. Neither source of "Formless Fist" is a serious barrier to compressing the Monk's weaponskills.

Form Shift QoL change be reverted back to how it was seems reductive just to for the sake of condensing, Perfect balance is a burst phase and can be reajdusted to disregard Twin demo and the aoe resetting twin at FpF, having said all this MNK is still a bad example as ur never doing the same 1-2-3 twice so itll require to either be dumbed down and have a designated debuff/buff rotation or just leave MNK be focus on other skills that are bloat like the fists or role skills or its 3 Buff skills rather than trying to simplify its current rotation

[Naoki34]

FFXIV is definitely a PvE game but still tries to bait PvP players who in doubt might like it, but it's only a bait in view of the reward and the gameplay.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Form Shift QoL change be reverted back to how it was seems reductive just to for the sake of condensing, Perfect balance is a burst phase and can be reajdusted to disregard Twin demo and the aoe resetting twin at FpF, having said all this MNK is still a bad example as ur never doing the same 1-2-3 twice so itll require to either be dumbed down and have a designated debuff/buff rotation or just leave MNK be focus on other skills that are bloat like the fists or role skills or its 3 Buff skills rather than trying to simplify its current rotation

Wrong. The Monk weapon skill cycle repeats every 18 gcds as you alternate Dragon Kick and Boot Shine every Opo-Opo Form and Twin Snakes and True Strike every Raptor while Coeurl Form has Demolish alternate with 2 Snap Punches:

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 6 4 5 3 1 2 6 4 5 6

Turned into a 2 button combo this becomes:

1 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 2

The rotation is far from as free form or complex as you believe.